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Esperanza fatalities greensheet?

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  • Crwb4104
    replied
    wow. Quite the post to read. Overall, sometimes dispite every bit of knowledge, training, weather information, and planning, terrible things can happen. No matter how much knowledge of fire you have, you can still get killed or injured. If you try to do this job thinking that your invincible due to your immense knowledge of fire, your going to march off to your own death (and probably someone else that just happened to follow you).

    It does seem like that through this post, you have learned quite a bit about how we "West Coast" folks fight wildland fire. I think that if we have all learned something is that we may need to improve communication with our brothers on the East Coast.

    Hopefully, we can all agree that our thoughts and prayers are with that Engine Crew and their families.

    Leave a comment:


  • mindyblock
    replied
    Update

    I've since published Sunrise Fire (www.qualityparks.org) and thank you for all your comments, even though some were tough to swallow. As a follow up, regarding the Esperanza Fire, I suggest you also go to this link which discusses the fire situation and ways to improve fire safety:
    http://www.coloradofirecamp.com/espe...al-factors.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • devildog4
    replied
    Mindy, please don't post here anymore. You and your allegations or assertions
    that somebody somewhere must have made a mistake and caused these deaths is not welcome here.

    Do ya think that maybe, just maybe, they might have been in a place they shouldn't have been in, and didn't recognize that fact until it was too late?

    Look, the fire was so fast and so over-whelming they couldn't even jump in the pool, take shelter in their truck or deploy their fire shelters.

    Looking at the topography, they were at the top of a huge drainage, which funneled all the heat and smoke towards them. They had no chance. It was dark when they got their and so smokey at daybreak may they could not see what dangerous situation they were potentially in.

    Don't try and point fingers here. They were well trained and equiped. They loved the job they were doing. They were our brothers.

    Take it someplace else. Nobody here wants to read your book, review your bookor read your posts. Please!

    Leave a comment:


  • STONEREMS
    replied
    Originally posted by mindyblock
    Hi all,

    What I was trying to "prove" was that given enough knowledge of fire that firefighters don't have to die on the line. That there must have been a mechanical mistake or a computer glich and that it wasn't all about Watch Out conditions, that maybe policy at upper levels were at issue.
    This sounds like one of those books that arm chair quarter backs and tries to point fingers and create conspiracy therioes as to what went wrong.

    I am not going to pretend I know anything about wild land fire fighting, however, no matter how many computers, modern mechanical tools, or how many policies are written -

    mother nature is not 100% predictable when she doesnt want to be. Seems to me that these type of fires do not play by the same rules as a structure fires.

    God Speed to E57.

    Leave a comment:


  • RxFire
    replied
    SBF E-57 story (aka Firefighter Down)

    I got this at work the other day, and just got around to posting here.

    http://www.pe.com/digitalextra/metro...26.353b5a.html

    Leave a comment:


  • mindyblock
    replied
    Hi all,

    What I was trying to "prove" was that given enough knowledge of fire that firefighters don't have to die on the line. That there must have been a mechanical mistake or a computer glich and that it wasn't all about Watch Out conditions, that maybe policy at upper levels were at issue. But I will have to wait for the final incident report, I believe it will be done by NIFC, and see.

    And I do have to get back to writing. From this dialogue I learned that firefighters die. This I will add to the story. And I will add in the importance of fire awareness, something I think we know less of on the east coast than we do of hurricanes.

    Please feel free to critque the Firefighter Story as many other have done chapter reviews so that the content and characters are well balanced.

    Thank you for the information shared.

    Sincerely,
    Mindy

    P.S. I removed the Fire Awareness report I posted on-line. For more information on the Firefighter Story - www.qualityparks.org

    Leave a comment:


  • devildog4
    replied
    Mindy...

    Once again, as far as the extended staffing, the USFS will extend staffing/manning after the end of the 8 hour workday. they DO NOT
    man on a 24 hour shift.

    The RAWS data site for WEATHER, not STAFFING was for the day before in the afternoon. This Santa Ana wind event started AFTER that data was posted. The fire started in the early morning hours the next day.

    Santa Ana wind events can and do show up unexpectedly. This may have been the case.

    Where are you going with all this? I asked you before.

    What is your problem? What are you trying to prove?

    Leave a comment:


  • RxFire
    replied
    Mindy

    RAWS data will NOT tell you staffing levels. It is used in to help create staffing levels.

    Additionally, adjective levels (low, med, high, etc.) are mainly for the public. Staffing can be done at whatever level management decides it wants for the particular FORCASTED weather and fire conditions regardless of the adjective.

    Are you trying to compare Long Island to the SBF?

    Leave a comment:


  • mindyblock
    replied
    This is what is done on Long Island: http://pb.state.ny.us/

    This is the staffing levels from the USFS for Banning, CA - scroll down
    http://www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/archi...25/fdr_obs.dat

    In terms of extended hours, I was responding to: "NonSurfinCaFF - The USFS response would have been delayed since we only work 930-6, after hours it can take up to 2 hours to get engines and crews staffed."

    These are my sources of information. I hope this clears things up.

    Leave a comment:


  • devildog4
    replied
    Mindy, please...

    The RAWS site will tell you the weather data, NOT the staffing level. Where in the h*ell did you get that idea?

    Our preparation level? Extended hours? These both have been answered and addressed earlier at great length.

    What are you after? What are you trying to proof here?

    Fire resources in SoCal are not a bunch of knuckleheads as you would want others to believe. The preparations were explained in detail, and extended hours was discussed in several posts as well.

    Stop your BS and go to another forum!

    Leave a comment:


  • mindyblock
    replied
    I am still trying to check the data on the Raws station - Banning - to determine what was the staffing level. From what I hear, everybody knew that it was 5 (the highest) and Fire Danger was Extreme and Red Flag warnings were out and the Santa Anna winds were coming. What is the preparation level for you guys out west. Extended hours?
    Last edited by mindyblock; 11-29-2006, 12:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • NonSurfinCaFF
    replied
    The USFS response would have been delayed since we only work 930-6, after hours it can take up to 2 hours to get engines and crews staffed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Explorer101
    replied
    Thanks; I figured the only delayed response was the aircraft.

    Leave a comment:


  • devildog4
    replied
    CDF handcrews would respond that night
    Air Resources were grounded until daylight
    Mutual Aid was on the way that night
    Strike Teams were on the way that night

    Leave a comment:


  • Explorer101
    replied
    Godspeed brothers. Engine 57 will be forever remembered.

    Since the fire had started at 1:00 AM, would resource availability be affected?
    Such as:
    -CDF Conservation Crews
    -Air Resources
    -Mutual Aid
    -Strike Teams

    Or does the time of day not matter?

    Leave a comment:

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