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  • Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Sure, but it's all theoretical. Until we can explore, we won't know.

    Some experts say there could be as many as 18 billion barrels in these prohibited areas.

    As for the time range, even if it is 10 years (and that is also debatable) more the reason to start now.

    Noone is saying it will help current prices, but we need to think long term as well.
    As a side note, the DOE and USGS have been found to be way off on their estimates in the past. They estimate 10 billion barrels, and the oil companies find 30 billion.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by BryanLoader View Post
      Scarecrow; I don't know how much experience you have in the oil industry but if the US opened up the wildlife refuge right now for exploration and development, it would be well over a decade before that oil ever reached the first gas tank. I work for some of the worlds biggest oil companies including American and its simple logistics. Seismic licensing, implementation, gathering and interpretation, minimum 3 years. Actual issuing of exploration licenses, sourcing of drilling rigs and then actual drilling of exploartion wells, 5 to 7 years. Completion of sucessful wells, gathering systems, whether onshore or offshore, transportation, pipelines, FPSO's, tankers, probably another 6 to 8 years. Factor in environmental impact studies, native land claims, extreme weather conditions, worldwide shortage of experienced personnel as well as equipent suitable for working in the environment and you are probably looking at 2 decades for this oil to reach the market. Keep in mind, nobody can be positive that there are economically viable reserves there to develop. One thing I can guarantee is that the US taxpayer will be asked for massive subsidies to kick start and probably continue paying for any development. Best we start considering viable energy alternatives
      Perhaps. But if we were serious about it we could expedite that process. All the red tape could be cut. As for ANWR, my understanding is that this would use the already existing Alaska pipeline, thus getting me more nag for the buck.

      As for the subsidies, I would like to see all subsidies gone. We subsidized this failed effort into the ethanol market and now we are stuck with it. The problem, however, is that other countries subsidize their energy costs. Since our businesses must compete on a global scale is it fair to have them pay full price for their energy while the competition gets a reduced rate? Either way it is a difficult question, one which is not easily answered.

      I do know this much. We made a bad decision years ago not to drill for the oil. The longer we delay reversing that decision the longer we will suffer.

      As a side note, Watching Glenn Beck the other day. He was commenting on the falling price of oil. The reason the price is dropping is we are using less, the reason we are using less is the economy is falling. Something to think about.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
        OH REALLY!!! Similar to the claims that lifting a ban offshore drilling for supplies that won't exist for at least a decade is impacting prices today?

        Priceless.
        That is the entire point. You have been told this before, you access it now to AID the process. We were arguing this same point 10 years ago in this country and the Libs were saying the same thing about it. If we had accessed it, it might have an affect now.

        You drill off our shores, then we keep the oil in our nation, not sell it on the market. It can be done, you just have to have the political wherewithall to do it.
        "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

        The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

        "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

        "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

        www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
          As a side note, the DOE and USGS have been found to be way off on their estimates in the past. They estimate 10 billion barrels, and the oil companies find 30 billion.
          You expect accuracy from a government agency? Surely you jest.
          "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

          The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

          "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

          "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

          www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

          Comment


          • Originally posted by txgp17 View Post
            Clearly, the threat of allowing more drilling in America threatens the profit margins of oil speculators, causing a down turn in oil prices.
            I looked through your links and could find nothing that states the current decrease in oil pricing is being caused by lifting of the drilling ban.
            They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

            I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
              More evidence that you do not understand the commodities market.
              Really?? I would like to read or find a commodities broker who is buying futures for oil that hasn't even been discovered yet. Your fealty to this point is only proving YOU have no understanding of how the commodities work.

              Be reasonable. I think everybody here knows and understands the concept of supply and demand.

              However, supply and demand has value only when the supply component is readily available or imminently available. The price of gas doesn't come down today because fuel cell technology may be here in another decade. The price of electricity isn't moderated because Moore's Law dictates that solar panels will be cheap, many times more efficient and readily available for all homeowners by 2020. In order for supply to drive down price, there first needs to be supply. In the context of the OCS, it was specifically argued that the discussion of opening the OCS was responsible for the reduction in global oil prices.

              This isn't a difficult concept: The prospect of a potential supply of oil which wouldn't be on the market for 10-20 years will not drive down the current price of oil. That price is driven instead by the availability of oil today--will war in Angola interrupt production, will a hurricane shut down rigs in the Gulf, will Israel bomb Iran and cause the latter to go offline?--and not by what could happen two decades from now. Even if those leases were signed this morning, the oil market wouldn't see that oil for many years, and until it contributes to the global supply, it doesn't exist.

              Are you still confused on this subject? I surely hope not.
              Last edited by scfire86; 08-18-2008, 11:12 AM.
              They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

              I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
                As a side note, the DOE and USGS have been found to be way off on their estimates in the past. They estimate 10 billion barrels, and the oil companies find 30 billion.
                When has this happened?
                They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
                  As a side note, Watching Glenn Beck the other day. He was commenting on the falling price of oil. The reason the price is dropping is we are using less, the reason we are using less is the economy is falling. Something to think about.
                  Glenn Beck gets it. Oil that hasn't been discovered yet is NOT the reason for falling prices.

                  As I've stated before. Capitalism is a great engine of progress, but it can kill the goose that lays the golden egg. We're seeing that with oil producing entities.
                  They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                  I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
                    It's called satire. I expected some of the morons on here not to get it, but most people who have been on here awhile got it. I'm surprised you didn't.
                    Thats what I figured. But I couldnt pass on a chance to learn a bit more about the mystery that is GeorgeWendtCFI, so I had to ask...just in case.
                    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                    Success is when skill meets opportunity
                    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
                      Really?? I would like to read or find a commodities broker who is buying futures for oil that hasn't even been discovered yet.
                      I will say this, and I am by no means an expert, and if anyone on here is then why are you wasting your time here!

                      The supply and demand forces at work are completely screwed up by the out of control speculation of the oil market.

                      SO, to say that the threat of opening of offshore oil to exploration would have no impact on today's oil prices is not neccesarily true. It could impact it, just like any other ripple through any speculative market.

                      Not to mention that if the ban is lifted, there is some oil off the coast of california (10 billion barrels by some estimates) that is in shallow water and could be produced in a year. Wall Street Journal article reposted here (WSJ requires subscription) http://news.tennesseeanytime.org/energy/node/610

                      This is what speculators do, they discount the future.
                      I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                      "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                      "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ScareCrow57 View Post
                        Those are the liberal talking points used by Pelosi and her merry band of henchmen. I assure you that given the opportunity the oil from off-shore drilling and ANWR would reach the market far faster than these feet dragging idiots predict. These aren't government workers that are putting these rigs in place, they are private corporations looking to make a profit.

                        And because they are paying people wages to build new rigs,refurbish older rigs and install them off the coasts,local economies will benefit from the drilling as well.
                        That may be why the Democrats are so against drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.Most with coastlines on the Gulf have Republican Governors.It would look bad if a Republican Governor was in office when a state's economy improved,wouldn't it?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by doughesson View Post
                          That may be why the Democrats are so against drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.Most with coastlines on the Gulf have Republican Governors.It would look bad if a Republican Governor was in office when a state's economy improved,wouldn't it?
                          Is that the reason Jeb Bush was opposed to drilling off the coast of Florida? He didn't want to look good to spite the dems.
                          They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                          I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                            This is what speculators do, they discount the future.
                            Fair enough. If you or George can find one oil commodities broker that is recommending a buy position based upon supplies that are ten years away from being realized (or may not exist at all) I'll change my mind on this issue.

                            The cause and effect to a decades away oil supply is akin to me saying that I've never been rained on since I started carrying an umbrella in my car.
                            They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                            I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ECCMac View Post
                              Touche!

                              However, that does not address the wrongs cited in the original quote. It merely defines income (which was never really in question), not why it is not consitutional to tax it...good cite though. Look though the citation, it never mentions that is overthrows the last ruling by the SC...I know, clear as mud. Again...food for thought.
                              All well and good I guess. The end result is the feds consider wages taxable income and levy taxes accordingly under the authority of the 16th Ammendment and Constitutional provisions I cited earlier.
                              They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

                              I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
                                Fair enough. If you or George can find one oil commodities broker that is recommending a buy position based upon supplies that are ten years away from being realized (or may not exist at all) I'll change my mind on this issue.

                                The cause and effect to a decades away oil supply is akin to me saying that I've never been rained on since I started carrying an umbrella in my car.
                                Perhaps you missed the part of my post that discussed bringing some california oil to market within a year.

                                You are applying rational theory to a process (speculation) that relies on "irrational" actions or guesswork based on hunches and guesses. If these prices or supplies were a sure thing then it wouldn't be called "speculation".

                                I'm not going to start calling brokers to satisfy a debate on an internet forum. So, you can keep your opinion.

                                Let me further state that I do NOT believe the announcement is the sole reason for the drop in prices. But I really do believe that speculation is the driving force behind these prices.
                                Last edited by ChiefKN; 08-18-2008, 03:58 PM.
                                I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                                "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                                "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                                Comment

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