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Chicken sh*t Nancy Pelosi!!!!!

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  • Originally posted by jasper45 View Post
    Actually, it was created by former Gov. Tommy Thompson. It was also a brilliant plan that was implemented in 1997, or so.
    It was so revolutionary that many copied it elsewhere. It absolutely needed to be done, and I would gladly challenge any claim that it costs more now than before.
    I saw firsthand how much abuse was on the welfare system here before. We removed a lot of free loaders off of our tax roll.

    And before you get upset by that remark, the free loaders were those people who came here only to collect welfare. It happened, and it was ridiculous. Prior to W2, people flocked here to get on the system, because the requirements to collect were so lenient and lax.
    The abuses happening were criminal.
    hey, i'm not upset, i personally know people who abused the system, and a lot of people from chicago came up to cash in on it. i also know some families that were hurt by it too. mothers working 2-3 jobs and the kids basically raising themselves and running wild. i'm not saying that it is the responsibility of anyone other than the parents to raise the kids, but i know some good people who met hard times and their kids suffered. where were the fathers? dealing or not dealing with their issues i assume. some were off living the "thug life" selling drugs and trying to be superfly, and their kids suffered from it. some had no idea how to be a father because they never had an example. such is life in the inner city. i try not to judge people, things are the way they are regardless of my opinion. i was fortunate enough to come from a two parent household and both my parents went to work everyday. i also know immigrants who were never on welfare, but were working under the table. and the funny thing is, their kids who were born here and are american by birth have issues, while the kids who were between 5 and 8 when they got here took full advantage of their opportunities. what does that say about us (americans by birth that is)?

    something had to change, but i do believe in a safety net (i'm not anti-new deal). i take you up on your challenge though, that it hasn't cost more.

    one thing that i found hilarious during the whole thing was the group that called themselves the welfare warriors. some people have no shame. when i was growing up, one hid the fact that they received food stamps. i also know some people who grew up upper middle class who got food stamps when they left their parents' house to experience what it was like to be poor. that really ****ed me off. the majority of poor people i knew didn't want to be poor, and didn't feel great about being on welfare. but, i knew people who had pride, but were willing to swallow it when they had to.

    as a firefighter i'm sure you saw a lot of people who were just looking to get over on the system anyway possible. i grew up with some of those people, but they were in the minority. a friend of mine is a nurse and he would get ****ed off at all of the alcoholics and cocaine addicts who would come in the emergency room and tap out the blood bank. such is city living, and i have to admit that i love the city (but not all the people in it).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by jsin925 View Post
      my point is that there are two sides to every story. the majority of articles are from james petras who is (or was) an emeritus professor of sociology at SUNY binghamton. his documents are straight forward too, just not along your ideological spectrum. i can say that he writes in a very academic way though.

      do you believe everything amnesty international says about the usa? the government has lost a lot of credibility with me with the whole there are weapons of mass destruction in iraq and we have proof, but they were wrong.

      and, you know i can say the state dept is full of wackjobs. god knows congress is.

      there is a great documentary called "the revolution will not be televised" where some irish filmmakers were doing a documentary on chavez and happen to catch the whole coup on film. it shows how the tv stations were complicit with the coup and distorted images to make it look like the chavez supporters were crazy people shooting innocent demostrators. whether one likes chavez or not it is a great film. here's a link to it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...90545689805144

      i know you won't watch it, but it is a great film.
      The human rights violations and his anti-democratic actions are well documented.

      Are there problems within the USA, sure.. but it's still a democracy. What Chavez has done and is still doing is slowly reversing policy towards a dictatorship.

      He has looked to end term limits for president, and has publicly stated that he wants to be president for 25 years.

      He has used death squads and imprisonment to supress his political adversaries.

      He controls the press and stifles personal freedoms.

      How can you defend or deny that?
      I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

      "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

      "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
        The human rights violations and his anti-democratic actions are well documented.

        Are there problems within the USA, sure.. but it's still a democracy. What Chavez has done and is still doing is slowly reversing policy towards a dictatorship.

        He has looked to end term limits for president, and has publicly stated that he wants to be president for 25 years.

        He has used death squads and imprisonment to supress his political adversaries.

        He controls the press and stifles personal freedoms.

        How can you defend or deny that?
        not to defend, but to play the devil's advocate, the referendum that was voted down by the people was to end term limits. chavez honored the peoples' choice. in england can't one be prime minister as long as the people keep voting him/her in? aren't there no term limits? i could be wrong, please correct me if i am.

        the majority of the media in venezeula is against chavez and calls for his removal. he does have a show where he rants for hours at a time sometimes, but the majority of the media is independent. otherwise, you wouldn't be able to get info from venezuela against him.

        his use of death squads i don't now about. my knowledge is that that info is false. otherwise his referendum would have passed. his political adversaries have held demonstrations against him.

        the usa being a democracy is up for debate. the electorial college is for *****, considering gore won the popular vote, meaning the majority of people wanted gore for be president. bush won less of the peoples vote than gore. voter lists are purged, and i don't trust diebold and their voter machines. in 2000 the supreme court ordered that the counting of votes be stopped. if chavez and his opponent were neck and neck, and the election came down to a state that chavez's brother was governor of, and he won that state, i bet you would say that chavez's brother fixed that state so chavez would win.

        didn't bush argue that people have the right to vote, but nowhere does it say that your vote has the right to count? people don't even choose who is running for president, it's the super delegates. the primaries are pretty much a show. the electorial college picks the president not the people. if we were a true democracy the people would have had a chance to vote on whether or not we should go to war. we are a republic, and i don't even know about that.

        did you read james petras' articles about chavez?

        Comment


        • Forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't have the patience to read through 13 pages worth!

          Everybody, Obama, Hillary, PELOSI, etc. is harping about the oil companies having windfall profits year after year. This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%. The average mark up on all other products clothing, food, etc. is 12%. (I'll see if I can find the AP article link on this for proof.) The media is constantly force feeding the populace negative information on "Big Oil". Why don't they approach it from another point of view and ask what can be done to get the price at the pump down? We have China drilling off of our shores, yet the our own oil companies are not allowed to drill anywhere! Rather than blaming Big Oil blame our government. Congress is demanding higher fleet gpm requirements yet absolutely refuses to allow new drilling. We have a veritable bounty of oil all over this country! Yet the presiding argument is NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

          As for ANWAR and the "horrible" damage that will be caused to the caribou and their habitat; the caribou population has exploded since the pipeline was brought up and running. Why? Because the heat dissipating off of the pipeline makes the surrounding area an ideal breeding area for caribou. So apparently the pipeline has become the local caribou party house! haha

          Then we have the libs, and some Republicans, pushing for more E85. Everybody knows how much of a joke that is, but in conjunction with the increase in fuel prices we now have an even larger percentage increase on food such as milk. Yet this is our wonderful Congress' answer to the rising cost of gas, put more corn it!!

          It's simple: DRILL DRILL DRILL!!!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by flamewalker25 View Post
            This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%.
            You don't actually believe the markup on a gallon of gas reflects their total profit...do you? Oil companies are vertically integrated. They are able to hide profits and costs at numerous places between the extraction of oil out of the groung and the pump where you put it into your car.

            The poor things are only getting by with 8%. I'm sure they'll be having to put recaps on the G5.
            They told me if I voted for Hillary Clinton the president would be emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable. They were right. I voted for Hillary Clinton and got a president that is emotional, impulsive, and unpredictable.

            I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by flamewalker25 View Post

              Everybody, Obama, Hillary, PELOSI, etc. is harping about the oil companies having windfall profits year after year. This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%. The average mark up on all other products clothing, food, etc. is 12%. .........
              It's simple: DRILL DRILL DRILL!!!


              “The ‘windfall profits’ tax is back, with Barack Obama stumping again to apply it to a handful of big oil companies. Which raises a few questions: What is a ‘windfall’ profit anyway? How does it differ from your everyday, run of the mill profit? Is it some absolute number, a matter of return on equity or sales—or does it merely depend on who earns it? Enquiring entrepreneurs want to know. Unfortunately, Mr. Obama’s ‘emergency’ plan, announced on Friday, doesn’t offer any clarity. To pay for ‘stimulus’ checks of $1,000 for families and $500 for individuals, the Senator says government would take ‘a reasonable share’ of oil company profits. Mr. Obama didn’t bother to define ‘reasonable’... This extraordinary redefinition of free-market success could use some parsing. Take Exxon Mobil, which on Thursday reported the highest quarterly profit ever and is the main target of any ‘windfall’ tax surcharge. Yet if its profits are at record highs, its tax bills are already at record highs too. Between 2003 and 2007, Exxon paid $64.7 billion in U.S. taxes, exceeding its after-tax U.S. earnings by more than $19 billion. That sounds like a government windfall to us, but perhaps we’re missing some... business subtlety. Maybe [Obama has] in mind profit margins as a percentage of sales. Yet by that standard Exxon’s profits don’t seem so large. Exxon’s profit margin stood at 10% for 2007, which is hardly out of line with the oil and gas industry average of 8.3%, or the 8.9% for U.S. manufacturing (excluding the sputtering auto makers). If that’s what constitutes windfall profits, most of corporate America would qualify... The fun part about this game is anyone can play. Jim Johnson, formerly of Fannie Mae and formerly a political fixer for Mr. Obama, reaped a windfall before Fannie’s multibillion-dollar accounting scandal. Bill Clinton took down as much as $15 million working as a rainmaker for billionaire financier Ron Burkle’s Yucaipa Companies. This may be the very definition of ‘windfall.’... The point is that what constitutes an abnormal profit is entirely arbitrary. It is in the eye of the political beholder, who is usually looking to soak some unpopular business. In other words, a windfall is nothing more than a profit earned by a business that some politician dislikes. And a tax on that profit is merely a form of politically motivated expropriation. It’s what politicians do in Venezuela, not in a free country.” —The Wall Street Journal
              01.20.13
              Change We Can Believe In.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by giweff View Post
                They all make over 100,000 $$ a year. Prob more for most of them b/c of other things. They don't give a **** about us and how much we pay for gas. The can afford it. Most Americans can't go on vacation, they are taking six weeks. Must be nice anyone on here get six weeks off at a time? I don't care if you are a dem or a Rep what they are doing is wrong. They should be at work trying to do something. And kicking everyone out is the biggest piece of $hit thing I have ever head of. What is our country coming to.

                It’s one thing [for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi] to not allow a vote on more energy production. It’s another to not even allow people to speak about it... You can turn off the lights, but you cannot silence the will of the American people.” —John Campbell

                “I really believe that the reason why the Democratic leadership has not brought [The American Energy Act] or a compromise bill like that to the floor is because it would pass.” —Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN)
                Last edited by Raughammer1; 08-08-2008, 03:00 AM.
                01.20.13
                Change We Can Believe In.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                  I love it, another conspiracy theorist with NO evidence.

                  You think my head is in the sand, I won't say where I think your head is.

                  No theories at all. There is plenty of evidence, look for it. I did. I even posted a couple things for all to check out.

                  The Bush administration is and always has been in bed with the far right (among others) and have made no secret of it. In fact, it was part of his platform during the elections.

                  Want one example? Just do a search on that champion of morality, Alberto Gonzales and his crusade against that most precious of rights, freedom of speech.

                  Trust me, its all there for all to see if you take the time to look.

                  If it makes you feel better to ignore the truth and in doing so digress into insults, so be it.

                  Then again, perhaps your one of the the far right nuts who supports whats going on.

                  Either way, since you went where you did in your last post, its clear that an intelligent discussion is out of the question. I'm finished with this exchange.

                  Have a nice day...
                  Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                  IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                  "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                  RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                  Success is when skill meets opportunity
                  Failure is when fantasy meets reality

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave1983 View Post
                    No theories at all. There is plenty of evidence, look for it. I did. I even posted a couple things for all to check out.

                    The Bush administration is and always has been in bed with the far right (among others) and have made no secret of it. In fact, it was part of his platform during the elections.

                    Want one example? Just do a search on that champion of morality, Alberto Gonzales and his crusade against that most precious of rights, freedom of speech.

                    Trust me, its all there for all to see if you take the time to look.

                    If it makes you feel better to ignore the truth and in doing so digress into insults, so be it.

                    Then again, perhaps your one of the the far right nuts who supports whats going on.

                    Either way, since you went where you did in your last post, its clear that an intelligent discussion is out of the question. I'm finished with this exchange.

                    Have a nice day...
                    Care to provide some of this evidence or just throw around headlines?

                    I'm not ignoring any "truths", I have not seen any yet. Just black helicopter theories about the "far right".

                    Pony up friend, you made the claims.
                    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jsin925 View Post
                      not to defend, but to play the devil's advocate, the referendum that was voted down by the people was to end term limits. chavez honored the peoples' choice. in england can't one be prime minister as long as the people keep voting him/her in? aren't there no term limits? i could be wrong, please correct me if i am.

                      the majority of the media in venezeula is against chavez and calls for his removal. he does have a show where he rants for hours at a time sometimes, but the majority of the media is independent. otherwise, you wouldn't be able to get info from venezuela against him.

                      his use of death squads i don't now about. my knowledge is that that info is false. otherwise his referendum would have passed. his political adversaries have held demonstrations against him.

                      the usa being a democracy is up for debate. the electorial college is for *****, considering gore won the popular vote, meaning the majority of people wanted gore for be president. bush won less of the peoples vote than gore. voter lists are purged, and i don't trust diebold and their voter machines. in 2000 the supreme court ordered that the counting of votes be stopped. if chavez and his opponent were neck and neck, and the election came down to a state that chavez's brother was governor of, and he won that state, i bet you would say that chavez's brother fixed that state so chavez would win.

                      didn't bush argue that people have the right to vote, but nowhere does it say that your vote has the right to count? people don't even choose who is running for president, it's the super delegates. the primaries are pretty much a show. the electorial college picks the president not the people. if we were a true democracy the people would have had a chance to vote on whether or not we should go to war. we are a republic, and i don't even know about that.

                      did you read james petras' articles about chavez?
                      I read one of his posts.

                      So basically, your position is that the US is not a democracy and Venezuela is?

                      I'm not going to correct you on your wild and uneducated position that America is not a democracy. It's not a debate at all, and I urge you to get your hands on a fifth grade civics text.

                      Super delegates do not select the candidates. The individual parties do, have a problem with your party's process, take it up with them. FYI, the Republican party does not use super delegates.

                      The electoral college... well, I'm not a fan either, but you cannot point to that as an example of how the US is not a democracy. It has no bearing on how we create laws and govern. It only impacts how we elect the chief executive.

                      Here is more information by a nonprofit organization www.freedomhouse.org. This organization tracks countries and their progress towards the democratic ideals, such as freedom.

                      http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm...ccrcountry=141

                      Stop playing devil's advocate. It really isn't a proper role for someone who has such a poor grasp of the topic at hand.
                      I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                      "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                      "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
                        “The ‘windfall profits’ tax is back, with Barack Obama stumping again to apply it to a handful of big oil companies. Which raises a few questions: What is a ‘windfall’ profit anyway? How does it differ from your everyday, run of the mill profit? Is it some absolute number, a matter of return on equity or sales—or does it merely depend on who earns it? Enquiring entrepreneurs want to know. Unfortunately, Mr. Obama’s ‘emergency’ plan, announced on Friday, doesn’t offer any clarity. To pay for ‘stimulus’ checks of $1,000 for families and $500 for individuals, the Senator says government would take ‘a reasonable share’ of oil company profits. Mr. Obama didn’t bother to define ‘reasonable’... This extraordinary redefinition of free-market success could use some parsing. Take Exxon Mobil, which on Thursday reported the highest quarterly profit ever and is the main target of any ‘windfall’ tax surcharge. Yet if its profits are at record highs, its tax bills are already at record highs too. Between 2003 and 2007, Exxon paid $64.7 billion in U.S. taxes, exceeding its after-tax U.S. earnings by more than $19 billion. That sounds like a government windfall to us, but perhaps we’re missing some... business subtlety. Maybe [Obama has] in mind profit margins as a percentage of sales. Yet by that standard Exxon’s profits don’t seem so large. Exxon’s profit margin stood at 10% for 2007, which is hardly out of line with the oil and gas industry average of 8.3%, or the 8.9% for U.S. manufacturing (excluding the sputtering auto makers). If that’s what constitutes windfall profits, most of corporate America would qualify... The fun part about this game is anyone can play. Jim Johnson, formerly of Fannie Mae and formerly a political fixer for Mr. Obama, reaped a windfall before Fannie’s multibillion-dollar accounting scandal. Bill Clinton took down as much as $15 million working as a rainmaker for billionaire financier Ron Burkle’s Yucaipa Companies. This may be the very definition of ‘windfall.’... The point is that what constitutes an abnormal profit is entirely arbitrary. It is in the eye of the political beholder, who is usually looking to soak some unpopular business. In other words, a windfall is nothing more than a profit earned by a business that some politician dislikes. And a tax on that profit is merely a form of politically motivated expropriation. It’s what politicians do in Venezuela, not in a free country.” —The Wall Street Journal

                        Wealth redistribution at it's finest... Obama should be ashamed.

                        Typical liberal approach. Polarize and divide the haves and have-nots. Create a disenfranchised voting block, stay in power.
                        I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                        "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                        "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by flamewalker25 View Post
                          Forgive me if this has already been said, but I don't have the patience to read through 13 pages worth!

                          Everybody, Obama, Hillary, PELOSI, etc. is harping about the oil companies having windfall profits year after year. This may be so, but their mark up on their product is on average 8%. The average mark up on all other products clothing, food, etc. is 12%. (I'll see if I can find the AP article link on this for proof.) The media is constantly force feeding the populace negative information on "Big Oil". Why don't they approach it from another point of view and ask what can be done to get the price at the pump down? We have China drilling off of our shores, yet the our own oil companies are not allowed to drill anywhere! Rather than blaming Big Oil blame our government. Congress is demanding higher fleet gpm requirements yet absolutely refuses to allow new drilling. We have a veritable bounty of oil all over this country! Yet the presiding argument is NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard).

                          As for ANWAR and the "horrible" damage that will be caused to the caribou and their habitat; the caribou population has exploded since the pipeline was brought up and running. Why? Because the heat dissipating off of the pipeline makes the surrounding area an ideal breeding area for caribou. So apparently the pipeline has become the local caribou party house! haha

                          Then we have the libs, and some Republicans, pushing for more E85. Everybody knows how much of a joke that is, but in conjunction with the increase in fuel prices we now have an even larger percentage increase on food such as milk. Yet this is our wonderful Congress' answer to the rising cost of gas, put more corn it!!

                          It's simple: DRILL DRILL DRILL!!!
                          While I'm all for drilling and using our own oil, it's my understanding that middle-east oil (Sweet crude I believe they call it) requires far less refining. Ours is almost sludge compared to that stuff.

                          I think a bigger priority (at least from my viewpoint) is to start using the pumps out in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and other places that are sitting idle. Build more refineries, as well, so that we can handle the ever-increasing demand instead of letting other countries refine it for us. If you want to start drilling in some isolated portion of a wildlife reserve or off the coast of Florida, go for it and get it ready for future issues.

                          All the while, start looking at alternative energy that is efficient and cost-effective, not using a gallon of oil to turn corn into a gallon of gas that gets half the mileage.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                            I read one of his posts.

                            So basically, your position is that the US is not a democracy and Venezuela is?
                            no, not at all. there is no universally accepted definition of what a democracy is (at least i think i read that somewhere) because it can take on many different manifestations. in my definition, a true a democracy is a system where the people get to vote on everything. is this possible in today's world? probably not. but our elections have been/are rigged just like other countries.

                            Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                            I'm not going to correct you on your wild and uneducated position that America is not a democracy. It's not a debate at all, and I urge you to get your hands on a fifth grade civics text..
                            i just wish i could have gotten a chance to vote on the PATRIOT act, whether or not we should have invaded iraq, and on the supreme court justices. we are a representative democracy but that doesn't mean that the representatives will do the will of the people. they will do what they want. i'm for a more direct democracy.

                            and just because one votes doesn't mean their vote will count. in 2000 the supreme court disrupted the democratic process. and, with these voting machines we have today, you don't know who you are voting for, the computer decides.

                            Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                            Super delegates do not select the candidates. The individual parties do, have a problem with your party's process, take it up with them. FYI, the Republican party does not use super delegates.
                            i don't belong to any party and i dislike the two major ones and their candidates. i just think the whole thing is rigged.

                            Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                            The electoral college... well, I'm not a fan either, but you cannot point to that as an example of how the US is not a democracy. It has no bearing on how we create laws and govern. It only impacts how we elect the chief executive.
                            you got me there.

                            Originally posted by ChiefKN View Post
                            Here is more information by a nonprofit organization www.freedomhouse.org. This organization tracks countries and their progress towards the democratic ideals, such as freedom.

                            http://freedomhouse.org/template.cfm...ccrcountry=141

                            Stop playing devil's advocate. It really isn't a proper role for someone who has such a poor grasp of the topic at hand.
                            our freedoms are slowly but surely being eroded. at the last republican convention wasn't there a spot call the free speech zone where one could express their views, otherwise one risked arrest outside of that zone. i thought everywhere i step in this country is a free speech zone. the PATRIOT act gives the government the right to suspend all of your rights and take away your freedom if they feel like it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                              While I'm all for drilling and using our own oil, it's my understanding that middle-east oil (Sweet crude I believe they call it) requires far less refining. Ours is almost sludge compared to that stuff.

                              I think a bigger priority (at least from my viewpoint) is to start using the pumps out in Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and other places that are sitting idle. Build more refineries, as well, so that we can handle the ever-increasing demand instead of letting other countries refine it for us. If you want to start drilling in some isolated portion of a wildlife reserve or off the coast of Florida, go for it and get it ready for future issues.

                              All the while, start looking at alternative energy that is efficient and cost-effective, not using a gallon of oil to turn corn into a gallon of gas that gets half the mileage.
                              there has to be a lot of money in alternative energy. the first person to come up with a cost effective way of producing it will be a billionaire.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by jsin925 View Post
                                at the last republican convention wasn't there a spot call the free speech zone where one could express their views, otherwise one risked arrest outside of that zone. i thought everywhere i step in this country is a free speech zone. the PATRIOT act gives the government the right to suspend all of your rights and take away your freedom if they feel like it.
                                Have you ever heard of security? They establish these zones not to infringe on free speech rights, but to allow people to use their free speech, and express themselves safely for all.
                                There really are no bigger security risks than both parties national conventions. Why do people not understand this? Everyone has the right to free speech, but everyone also has the right to be safe. Security is a huge issue, and needs to be addressed. In fact, the DNC is doing the same thing in Denver, and it's ****ing people off out there too.
                                Believe it or not, free speech has some limitations.

                                The Secret Service is in a tough spot, but they are letting people express themselves. These conventions are extraordinary events, that are huge targets, and provide a nightmare to keep everyone safe. The amount of leaders who will be present at these events is about as juicy a target as there is.

                                The only people in New York who were arrested were those who wanted to be arrested. The actions of the Secret Service in these cases is in no way a violation of anyones free speech.
                                Last edited by jasper45; 08-08-2008, 01:43 PM.

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