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Chicken sh*t Nancy Pelosi!!!!!

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  • Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
    Its not just the Oil Companies. OPEC will most assuredly raise their price (or lower their output) to account for any new supply and the price at the pump will stay relatively the same.

    Also note that here pump prices have fallen 30-40 cents/gallon in the last week or so based purely on the debate on drilling and possible weather in the Gulf. If that's not a sign that speculation is a large part of the price, I don't know what is.
    Not to nit pick, but opec doesn't set prices, they set production.

    The market sets the price and runaway speculation has bastardized the supply and demand controls that exist naturally in a market like this.

    In addition, the dramatic increase in demand by the India and Chinese markets have also hurt prices.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
      The fall in oil prices can be directly attributed to the date when Pres. Bush announced he was lifting the ban on off shore drilling. Prices started their freefall the next day. It was not a coincidence.
      Exactly. It wasn't caused by any actual increase in Supply. It was based purely off of the speculation that they might talk about the possibility of going off to look for new supplies. This leads me to believe that Speculation has a lot more to do with the short-term rise and fall of oil prices then actually starting to look for more oil would.

      I also don't think the origin and amount of raw crude oil has everything to do with the high pump prices we're currently seeing. If it were we wouldn't be seeing the oil companies (Who are just middle men) making the profits they are. I know its a simplification, but they buy crude from OPEC, refine it, distribute it, and sell it at the pumps. If the price per barrel goes up, the price at the pump goes up but all profits get passed back to OPEC, the oil company doesn't keep it. The Oil companies are making huge profits as well so they can't put all the blame on price for crude. The fact is they also have a monopoly on refinement and distribution. They're able to manipulate Supply and Demand the same way OPEC does by limiting refinement and watch the price at the pumps skyrocket.

      Then they claim its because of the supply of Crude and take advantage of the fearmongering to get the US public to pay for them to go drill in ANWR and off the coast. This frees them from cost fluctuation by OPEC but protects their local income stream.

      I'm no fan of the R's or D's, and both sides are being played..
      So you call this your free country
      Tell me why it costs so much to live
      -3dd

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
        I gotta agree with you here Chief. Viable alternative fuel sources are, at least, a decade off from what I recall. While I'd love to go straight to alternative fuel sources right now, they just aren't ready for prime time. In the mean time, we need more oil now!

        FWIW, I don't like the idea of off shore drilling or drilling in wildlife preserves, but we need the fuel now. Just kick alternative fuel developement into overdrive and make it so we can cap the wells for the next thousand years early and move on.
        Not to nit pick but we need more gasoline, not crude oil. There are two "bad guys" here. OPEC is manipulating crude prices by limiting production. The oil companies are doing the exact same thing locally. They're manipulating gasoline (or refined oil) prices by controlling refinement.

        Increasing the amount of crude oil available helps take Opec out of the equation but we'd still have the local oil companies milking the situation for everything its worth. The situation won't change until there is competition at that level as well.
        So you call this your free country
        Tell me why it costs so much to live
        -3dd

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          What economic goals? Who's? While child labor sweat shops and working for pennies a day is better than no pay at all, i do not think that the chinese model of middle class prosperity is one that many Americans would be willing to change to..
          i never suggested changing to it, you are putting words in my mouth. they are going through their own industrial age now, one we went through in the late 19th/early 20 century. it works for them, that was my point.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          JS if you use it as an example others will use it as an example as well. If you use it to make a point others will and should do the same. If those that are living in the ghetto are selling crack and/or paying for satellite TV then no one is going to give a rats azz that they are mired in the "ghetto" for 32 years. It does not take 32 years to save enough money to buy a bus ticket to get out of that environment. I am sorry but i do not see your point in bringing the TV or the crack examples up..
          i said is was the most lucrative market in my neighborhood. when the factory jobs left, and reagan cut the funding for summer jobs for teens, and the middle class in my neighborhood dwindled, crack was the most lucrative market. i never said that i agree with the selling of drugs, because i don't. i was explaining the downfall of my neighborhood. and i never said it took me 32 years to get out of the ghetto, i said i lived there for 32 years. i happened to like my neighborhood (until it got too bad for me and my family), it used to be the most integrated area of my city and there are a lot of good people there. the majority don't sell crack.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          Sorry JS, your personal experience has been far different from mine. I do not use the degree that i hold to make the money i do today... but the degree i hold opened doors in another field that has been satisfactorily lucrative to keep me out of the ghetto. Sorry your luck or your resume' has not given you the gifts of life you wish they would but exactly why are you bringing these personal problems up? Sir if there are no jobs in your area, MOVE. The unemployment rate in Houston is at 3.5%. If you try and farm in the desert you will most likely fail. But if you move to a more fertile area your chances of being successful will most probably improve...hey, I’m just sayin'
          there are jobs here. i said i couldn't get an interview in the field i went to school for even though i teach that field at a local university here part time. i figure if i'm good enough to teach people to do the job, i should be good enough to at least get an interview. i just can't pick up and leave, i have kids, i like the schools they go to, and i like my city (i have a love/hate relationship with it).

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          Sir complaining that:
          1. the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer
          2. i'm not even a fan of the free market
          3. i have [lived in the ghetto] for 32 years and my neighborhood was devastated in the 80s by reaganomics, and then again by w-2.
          4. capitalism was great when applied to the crack market

          ...and so on and so forth, it leads people to think you have a beef with the capitalism- the free market - rich people, etc. etc. and that you equate those who make money in this system are taking advantage of all those in the "ghetto".
          I stand by my statements as i hope you stand by those you have made.
          capitalism is an expolitive system made to capitalize on other people. do i have a beef with it? not really, it is what it is. it is the system i was born into. i don't think it is the best system in the world, but nothing is perfect. i'm not a fan of the free market. there needs to be a fair market. i never said that people making money are taking advantage of those in the ghetto. once again you are putting words in my mouth. the crack market is a perfect example of capitalism. supply and demand. getting the most money for your product, and taking down your competitor. capitalizing on a given situation.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          What is your point, the black men sitting to either side of me make the same money as i do right now...heck one of them has been doing it for nigh 30 years. What about the descendents of the enslaved? Do they deserve some kind of special help the immigrants from Asia, Mexico or the middle east do not? Those folks for the most part seem to be doing pretty good over all...surely the "descendents of the enslaved of this country" are just as good as these ...immigrants. Yes?
          I think you are selling a whole lot of people short...a whole lot of people.
          you brought up poor europeans, most who came here in the late 19th and early 20th century. who had it easier, them or the descendents of those enslaved. were poor europeans still fighting for civil rights in the 60s. my point was that some have had an easier time to accumulate wealth that they could pass down to their children than others. if you didn't bring up poor europeans i wouldn't have brought up descendents of the enslaved. black and white people both live in a different world now than our decsendents.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          Sorry but there is one America. YOU might want to stick a "hyphen" in front of American but most of us do not. America is what you make of her...
          i agree and disagree. i don't like term african-american, mexican-american, asian-american, so on and so forth. if one was born here and grew up here, then one is an american. those terms are just political correctness that i can do without. america is not a homogenous place with one culture (unless capitalism and consumerism is considered culture). but for the most part, you are right there is only one america, we all just experience it differently.


          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          Odd others have just walked up and opened the door by themselves for the most part. Why should someone have to crack the door for you?
          We are all equal JS, no one deserves to get the door cracked open FOR them if they are not willing to stand up and open it themselves.
          true some have been able to open the door for themselves, and some had to have leigslation passed to get the door cracked open for them. i agree we are all equal, but if you look at society there are lots of inequalities still. tell me how i can give myself a job interview for a job that i know i am qualified, most times overqualified for? i believe i have done a lot of turning of the knob but the door is locked. just my experience, not saying that it won't change.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          Yea, thats the way it goes sometimes. Sounds like you had some smart friends.

          Sounds like to me your pride is hurting you...and your kids. I wish you all the luck in the world and all the success you desire but to keep doing the same thing and that "thing" leads to failure, well that is not the wisest decision IMO. The quickest way out of a hole to stop diggin’.

          Sir, yes...sometimes. But life is what you make of it and millions before you and it seems, even your friends understood that the economy changes, it always changes. An area that is lucrative now might not be so successful in the future and we have to change our actions to be successful accordingly. What might have been beyond your control THEN, as a child is one thing. But now you’re an adult, you more (most probably) than have the means to purchase a bus ticket and move to a more lucrative area if that was your goal. Hispanics from other countries move to this area all the time and I assure you, many of them are MUCH less wealthy than you most probably are. (Not to mention they oft times do not even speak English…)
          my friends don't have children, i do. my base of support (family and friends) is here. i was in college when i had my kids, and i believed that getting a degree would offer me more opportunity to provide for my children. picking up and moving wasn't an option. have you seen the price for daycare? my parents are retired so they could watch my kids for free. wouldn't have had that luxury if i left. after getting my bachelors i worked a few dead-end jobs then i was offered a fellowship to go to graduate school here, where i would've had to paid tuition to a school in another state. i don't know what hole i was digging myself in by getting an education which i was told growing up is the way to better one's options.

          the hispanics move to this country because there is no opportunity in their country. they want to be able to send their children to school so they can get an education and live better than them. i actually tried one summer to get a job landscaping and no one would hire me. i'm not going to move my family around. like i said i like the schools my kids go to and the cost of living is cheaper here than most places. my wife is advancing at her job and it wouldn't be fair to her.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          Mine made a lot less than half that… neither them even added together ever made even close to that kind of money.

          The living standard in the suburbs is absolutely great… (comparatively speaking) I never want to go back to living in the “city”. I will take raising my children “here” over “there” any day.
          i can't stand the burbs. i'm a city boy. to each his/her own. i like my living standard in the part of the city i'm in now.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          in my observation capitalism profits those who work for it, while those who will not work for it suffer in misery.
          i'm not against working, i'm all for it. i've been trying to find a job that pays me a livable for 3 years now.

          Originally posted by Raughammer1 View Post
          So…move to Norway? Or your other example of poor to prosperity: China.
          What ever you decide please don’t try and change my country into Norway; just move there. No one is stopping you, but you…

          Thanks for the conversation, have a great night.
          not trying to change the country into norway, you missed my point.
          great time talking to you.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by jsin925 View Post
            i don't think it is the best system in the world, but nothing is perfect. i'm not a fan of the free market. there needs to be a fair market.
            Wait wait wait...

            What system in this world is better?

            Have you ever taken an economics class?
            I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

            "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

            "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
              Not to nit pick but we need more gasoline, not crude oil. There are two "bad guys" here. OPEC is manipulating crude prices by limiting production. The oil companies are doing the exact same thing locally. They're manipulating gasoline (or refined oil) prices by controlling refinement.

              Increasing the amount of crude oil available helps take Opec out of the equation but we'd still have the local oil companies milking the situation for everything its worth. The situation won't change until there is competition at that level as well.
              True, but the only thing the government can really do is free up areas for exploration. The oil companies can't really be forced to produce more gasoline.

              Unfortunately.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
                Not to nit pick but we need more gasoline, not crude oil. There are two "bad guys" here. OPEC is manipulating crude prices by limiting production. The oil companies are doing the exact same thing locally. They're manipulating gasoline (or refined oil) prices by controlling refinement.

                Increasing the amount of crude oil available helps take Opec out of the equation but we'd still have the local oil companies milking the situation for everything its worth. The situation won't change until there is competition at that level as well.
                You honestly don't know a whole lot about this, do you?

                OPEC is running oil production at close to capacity. Why wouldn't they? With prices at this level. In fact, OPEC nations are projecting that their ability to oncrease production will actually raise by 5 million barrels per day by 2010.

                OPEC also only has authority over about 30% of the world's crude oil. While they are certainly a formidable obstacle in lowering prices, they are not alone.

                The per barrel price that is most often quoted is the price in the futures market. This is where the speculators have influence. However, when we are talking about the price we are paying today, we are looking at a price that is solely based on supply and demand. Demand has skyrocketed as the economies of India and China have evolved.

                Oil refining capacity is certainly a factor in the price of gasoline. But it is hardly the oil companies that are holding back on that aspect. The state and federal governments have placed so many financial and environmental obstacles in the way, it is simply not economically feasible to build refineries. Hell, it doesn't even pay for them to refurbish the ones they have.

                The bottom line is, again, supply and demand. Increasing the world oil supply by several hundred thousand barrels per day would allow us to reduce our need for buying oil on the world market. That would cause prices to nosedive. At the same time, working to increase our use of nuclear power, new clean coal technology, natural gas (for vehicles), improving battery technology and other alternative fuels would dramatically decrease demand for oil. The result would be another nosedive in gasoline prices. We might even get back to the days when they gave out glasses and green stamps with your gasoline purchase just to get you to buy gasoline. (God, I sound like Paris Hilton).
                PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                Comment


                • i was in college when i had my kids, and i believed that getting a degree would offer me more opportunity to provide for my children. picking up and moving wasn't an option. have you seen the price for daycare? my parents are retired so they could watch my kids for free. wouldn't have had that luxury if i left. after getting my bachelors i worked a few dead-end jobs then i was offered a fellowship to go to graduate school here, where i would've had to paid tuition to a school in another state. i don't know what hole i was digging myself in by getting an education which i was told growing up is the way to better one's options
                  Poor you. What is your Masters in?
                  PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                  Comment


                  • capitalism is an expolitive system made to capitalize on other people.
                    All economic systems are exploitive in someone's opinion. Socialism, communism, and even Fascism all capitalize on the most capable of society and use their labor to suppor the least capable. Instead of "exploiting" the workers who sell their labor, these other systems exploit those who would thrive in a free market economy. The exploit capable managers, inventors, and innovaters by making sure they aren't rewarded for their efforts.

                    People generally want to be rewarded for good work. After all, you want a good job to "reward" you for getting your education, correct?

                    do i have a beef with it? not really, it is what it is. it is the system i was born into. i don't think it is the best system in the world, but nothing is perfect. i'm not a fan of the free market. there needs to be a fair market.
                    You don't have a problem with capitalism, but you have a problem with the free market economy? Sorry...I just don't see how both statements can be true. Perhaps I'm not understanding you?

                    Just for the record though, you lament not being able to get a job in your chosen field where you live, and yet you refuse to move. Sorry bud, but that's on you. Yes, I understand your reasons. I sympathize with them. I'm sort of stuck in my home town at the moment because I'm an only child and my mother will probably need some kind of assistance in the next few years. I can't do that living 200+ miles away after all. But to use yourself as an example on this is hardly viable. You have made a choice. That choice has impacted your potential for finding a job. Accept it and move on.

                    Example: There is only one airplane manufacturer in my home town (if they're still even here). They are a small company. I would be stupid to get a degree in aerospace engineering and then lament my inability to get a job in my chosen field when I refuse to move to a place where there are more jobs.

                    I'm not trying to be an ***** here, but you had a choice and you made it. It looks like you're upset you can't have your cake and eat it too.

                    Of course, not knowing what your degree is in, or where you live, definitely as an effect on my opinions. Knowing that information could change things.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
                      OPEC also only has authority over about 30% of the world's crude oil. While they are certainly a formidable obstacle in lowering prices, they are not alone.
                      Certainly I simplified when I said OPEC, singularly, was responsible. I don't think that negates my arguments. Supply at the pump is determined by both Crude production capability and Refinement capability. New drilling will only increase crude and will do next to nothing if the bottleneck/monopoly is with refinement.


                      Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
                      The bottom line is, again, supply and demand. Increasing the world oil supply by several hundred thousand barrels per day would allow us to reduce our need for buying oil on the world market. That would cause prices to nosedive.
                      If the price at the pump is primarily driven by the supply of Crude, why are the oil companies making record profits?
                      So you call this your free country
                      Tell me why it costs so much to live
                      -3dd

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by voyager9 View Post
                        If the price at the pump is primarily driven by the supply of Crude, why are the oil companies making record profits?
                        One of the reasons that the profits are so large is because the industry and the market is so large.

                        There are other industries that make more per dollar spent. Big oil makes about 8.3 cents per dollar invested. Pharmaceutical companies make 18.4 cents per dollar invested, and beverage and tobacco companies make 19.1 cents.

                        I also found an interesting tidbit in regards to increasing refining capacity, since 1985, oil companies in the US have increased refining capacity 20%. In spite of the reduction in refineries.

                        Also, not all oil companies are posting record profits. Valero only posted a modest $261 million in revenue. This is because of very narrow margins in the refining process, as crude oil prices rose even faster than gas at the pump, and losses from unplanned outages at it's refineries.

                        The price for crude oil has gone up about 80 percent, while gas prices have only gone up about 33 percent.

                        So who is making the money. Here's the funny part, you and I and thousands of other investors.

                        Mutual fund giant Vanguard has more than $18 billion in ExxonMobil stock. Most of that is owned by investors in the company's S&P 500 index fund and its total stock market index fund.

                        Almost every major mutual fund company owns oil stocks. Two of Fidelity's mutual funds, for example, rank in the top 10 holders of ExxonMobil stock.

                        The oil companies are "broadly owned by tens of millions of middle-class Americans, anyone with a pension plan or 401(k) or IRA account, a mutual fund," Dougher said. "They're really the owners. So, when their stock portfolios go up, that's really who benefits."

                        Portions of my post clipped from this link:

                        http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PainA...4749343&page=1
                        Last edited by ChiefKN; 08-06-2008, 02:23 PM.
                        I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                        "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                        "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by voyager9 View Post


                          If the price at the pump is primarily driven by the supply of Crude, why are the oil companies making record profits?
                          There is no legal limit on the price of gas. They can charge whtever they want. They could charge $10 gallon and probably not take much of a hit. Because most of the American public will keep buying gas.

                          Are they making huge amount os money? Of course they are. I personally think it is morally reprehensible. But corporations are in business for one fundamental purpose-to make money. Are they price gouging? Probably. A comprehensive investigation should take place to fnd out how bad it is. But Obama's plan for a confiscatory tax in order to redistribute the money to the "poor" would set a horrible precedent.

                          If you want to see the idiocy of this plan, ask yourself this question; how much money should the oil companies be allowed to make?
                          PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
                            Poor you. What is your Masters in?
                            i never asked for anyones sympathy, nor do i expect it.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by jsin925 View Post
                              i never asked for anyones sympathy, nor do i expect it.
                              How about answering the question so we can judge the validity of your complaint? (I'll bet he doesn't answer).
                              PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
                                All economic systems are exploitive in someone's opinion. Socialism, communism, and even Fascism all capitalize on the most capable of society and use their labor to suppor the least capable. Instead of "exploiting" the workers who sell their labor, these other systems exploit those who would thrive in a free market economy. The exploit capable managers, inventors, and innovaters by making sure they aren't rewarded for their efforts.

                                People generally want to be rewarded for good work. After all, you want a good job to "reward" you for getting your education, correct?
                                people do want to be rewarded for good work, but the free market produces an uneven playing field. the free market rewards corporations who pay the average laborer the lowest amount. that's why jobs were shipped to mexico and then to china because the chinese will do it at a cheaper rate than the mexicans. that's why when i call tech support for my computer i'm talking to a person in india. why pay someone here $20,000 a year to do a job someone in india will do for $4000 a year. there's a great documentary about the effects of the free market called life&debt. no system is perfect, especially ours.


                                Originally posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
                                You don't have a problem with capitalism, but you have a problem with the free market economy? Sorry...I just don't see how both statements can be true. Perhaps I'm not understanding you?
                                capitalism doesn't equal the free market economy as proposed by milton friedman, the one we follow. what's wrong with a fair market economy?

                                Originally posted by Tomcat1066 View Post
                                Just for the record though, you lament not being able to get a job in your chosen field where you live, and yet you refuse to move. Sorry bud, but that's on you. Yes, I understand your reasons. I sympathize with them. I'm sort of stuck in my home town at the moment because I'm an only child and my mother will probably need some kind of assistance in the next few years. I can't do that living 200+ miles away after all. But to use yourself as an example on this is hardly viable. You have made a choice. That choice has impacted your potential for finding a job. Accept it and move on.

                                Example: There is only one airplane manufacturer in my home town (if they're still even here). They are a small company. I would be stupid to get a degree in aerospace engineering and then lament my inability to get a job in my chosen field when I refuse to move to a place where there are more jobs.

                                I'm not trying to be an ***** here, but you had a choice and you made it. It looks like you're upset you can't have your cake and eat it too.

                                Of course, not knowing what your degree is in, or where you live, definitely as an effect on my opinions. Knowing that information could change things.
                                i'm not lamenting, and didn't ask for anyone's sympathy. i was just explaining my situation. it's always easy to criticize someone when not walking in their shoes. like yourself, moving isn't always an option, or financially feasable. what cake am i trying to have and eat too? a job? i'm not trying to change your opinion, just explain mine. i haven't given up on my job search, and i said that i wasn't able to get an interview in the private sector. the city has given me an interview and i have a second one coming up. in today's economy it's hard for anyone to find a job. but that move where there's work is a simplified solution. if i don't have a job in the state i'm moving to how will i afford housing and food for my kids? i've applied to jobs in other states too, by the way, but i prefer to stay where i'm at if i can.

                                Comment

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