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US Army Officer Up For Court Martial

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  • scfire86
    replied
    Originally posted by MEDIC0372 View Post
    Maybe you need to read a little more...
    Read about how Saddam's political party was founded by Hitler's SS.
    Read about what left the country just prior to the invasion.
    Watch something other than CNN on the news.
    And you're going to sit there and tell us with a straight face this administration wouldn't be trumpeting about something like this on an hourly basis if there were a shred of proof. Considering how this has become one of the greatest foreign policy blunders in our nation's history one would have to be incredibly naive to believe the decision makers in this administration would leap at an opportunity like this to justify their incompetent decision making.

    That being said. This officer needs to accept the responsibility of his actions. If he chooses to refuse to be deployed on his personal beliefs that is his right. But it is also the right of the governing authority to which he swore an oath of allegiance to prosecute him accordingly.
    Last edited by scfire86; 02-25-2007, 10:08 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JHendley
    replied
    Well As Someone That Served 6 Yrs With The 82nd And 101st Airborne Divisions I Believe He Shoudl Be Serving Time In Prison. I Was In The Army When They Prosecuted A Man In Germany For Not Wearing A United Nations Patch On His Uniform. This Lt. Signed Up To Serve His Country And Now Refuses To Go To Iraq. Unfortunatley I Have Lost Severla People I Had Served With In The Past And He Should Step And Fullfill His Obligation...... All The Way!!!! Airborne....

    Leave a comment:


  • FiftyOnePride
    replied
    It is interesting how this topic got jacked and became a generalized argument about war in Iraq.

    Back on topic: he didn't follow orders, and now he gets punished like he should.

    Leave a comment:


  • MEDIC0372
    replied
    Originally posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    There is absolutely NO comparison to then and now. You guys know this...quit bringing it up again and again.

    BS. Numerous inspections over the years did their jobs. Even as late as 2002 nothing had been found...and nothing has yet to be found. It is becoming clearer and clearer as time goes by (even to those with thick heads) that the evidence used to justify the invasion of Iraq were bogus.

    .
    Maybe you need to read a little more...
    Read about how Saddam's political party was founded by Hitler's SS.
    Read about what left the country just prior to the invasion.
    Watch something other than CNN on the news.

    Leave a comment:


  • MalahatTwo7
    replied
    Any commander has to worry about losses in his forces.


    I heard it said that there are two types of Officers. There are "Killing Officers" and there are "Murdering Officers".

    Killing Officers are those who order their men into battle, knowing that some will be killed or wounded, but they do so because those are also their orders. These officers are often found in the thick of it all, leading from the front.

    Murdering Officers are those who send their troops into battle "just because", and dont really care if the troops die or not, because the whole operation was for Personal Glory.

    Leave a comment:


  • doughesson
    replied
    Originally posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is about the most bizarre logic I've ever seen. Thousands dead. Tens of thousands wounded. And somehow more might die and more might be wounded for your idea of a victory.

    I pray that thought is not prevalent in those who will be making the ultimate decisions.
    And so much for the idea that securing Freedom of others is worthy of American sacrifice,eh?
    Any commander has to worry about losses in his forces.But the chance that soldiers,sailors,Marines or airmen will die for attacking another to enforce UN sanctions or to remove a genocidal dictator should not dissuade a President from making the call.
    Imagine how the map would look if Roosevelt had backed off Europe because of the 6,000 dead in one day.
    I am praying that cowards that can't stand the sight of blood or refuse to accept it are never put in charge of running the war.

    Leave a comment:


  • doughesson
    replied
    Interestingly enough,"The Caine Mutiny"is being shown on AMC today and this weekend.
    About a court martial,from what I learned when I was looking down the barrels of one in 1986,the burden of proof of one's innocence or justification for not obeying an order from a superior is on the accused.The prosecution side doesn't have to do a thing besides read the charges and produce witnesses,who might not tell the truth but what they think will cause the most trouble for the accused.

    Originally posted by jasper45 View Post
    You are correct, however, a courts-martial often follows to determine if that action was appropriate.
    Just because one person thinks that an order is illegal, that doesn't mean that it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • MalahatTwo7
    replied
    Army Deserter Gets 7 Months In Prison. Man Quit Army Rather Than Serve In Iraq

    POSTED: 1:17 am EST February 23, 2007

    FORT HOOD, Texas -- A soldier who admitted fleeing from the Army rather than deploying to Iraq for a second time was sentenced Thursday to seven months in a military prison and given a bad conduct discharge.

    Spc. Mark Wilkerson, who pleaded guilty to desertion and missing troop movement earlier Thursday as part of a plea deal, faced a maximum sentence of 10 months.

    Wilkerson, 23, surrendered at Fort Hood in August -- about a year and a half after failing to return from an approved two-week leave. He said he was tired of running and wanted to move forward with his life.

    "I quit the Army, I quit my unit, and I did not show up when I needed to," Wilkerson told the judge Thursday.

    Prosecutor Capt. Derek Leo had asked the judge to send Wilkerson to prison and then release him with a dishonorable discharge.

    "He simply abandoned his Army family when they needed him most," Leo said in closing arguments. "A message must be sent ... that when one deserts and by design misses movement, confinement will occur."

    Wilkerson's lawyer, Michael J. Duncan, unsuccessfully argued that his client should not be incarcerated because he suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder.

    Wilkerson said he decided to go AWOL because his conscientious objector status was denied a month before his unit was to return to Iraq in early 2005. Wilkerson, who was 17 when he enlisted, has said his views on the war changed after he served in Iraq for a year beginning at the start of the March 2003 invasion.

    Since his return, Wilkerson has worked in an office at the central Texas Army post and has been allowed to leave after initially being confined to the post, although he was never in a cell, he said.

    Two weeks ago at Fort Lewis, Wash., a judge declared a mistrial in the court-martial of an Army lieutenant who refused to deploy to Iraq. A new trial is set for next month for 1st Lt. Ehren Watada of Honolulu, who has said he refused to go because he believes the war is illegal.

    Army medic Agustin Aguayo, who turned himself in last fall after fleeing before his second deployment to Iraq, is scheduled for trial next month in Germany.

    Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

    Leave a comment:


  • scfire86
    replied
    Originally posted by doughesson View Post
    5.If the government we are helping doesn't stand on its own,it means that the 3,000 plus soldiers who've died will have wasted themselves.Is that what you want?
    This is about the most bizarre logic I've ever seen. Thousands dead. Tens of thousands wounded. And somehow more might die and more might be wounded for your idea of a victory.

    I pray that thought is not prevalent in those who will be making the ultimate decisions.

    Leave a comment:


  • ThNozzleman
    replied
    1.The same concept applies.Hitler murdered as many people as he could for being of the Jewish faith.Hussein killed people of a different sect of his religion for much the same reason.
    I assure you, we did NOT wage war against Germany to save the Jews there.
    2.Inspections were delayed,denied and hassled during the 90s.Don't you watch the evening news?If there WERE CBR weapons in Iraq,he had ample time to get them some where else .
    The documents that were captured in 2003 could have information if they had anything Iraq wasn't supposed to have.The number of translaters being low,it's going to take a while to translate several tons of papers.
    Damn, this one gets old. You think Iraq just up and gave their weapons to another nation? Come on. All evidence points to the fact that Iraq did not have these weapons and that the Bush administration lied and twisted the truth. Don't you watch the news??
    3.USS Stark WAS hit 20 years ago.When it's your cousin's ship,you tend to recall what you were doing when you heard about it.
    Irrelevant.
    4.a.The President had an excellent plan to avoid an invasion:all Hussein had to do was abide by the numerous international conventions from the UN and it wouldn't have come to this."
    Nonsense. Bush was going into Iraq, facts be damned. The neocons have dreamed of it for YEARS.
    4.b.How you got the idea President Bush wanted to invade a sovereign nation before he even got elected is beyond me.take your meds and put your tin foil hat back on.
    You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? It's my guess that a LOT of things are beyond you.
    5.If the government we are helping doesn't stand on its own,it means that the 3,000 plus soldiers who've died will have wasted themselves.Is that what you want?
    What? Don't even think about pinning that one on me. The travesty that is Iraq is the fault of Bush and guys like you that supported him, instead of using common sense. These soldiers have wasted themselves because of what YOU wanted...a stupid, needless war based on PNAC wet dreams and lies.
    If this war was about oil,we'd be getting free oil stipends and the sand dunes in Iraq would collapse as we drained that country.We aren't doing that.
    Now I know you don't have a clue...except what Rush and Hannity feed you. Study some world history and come back when you're ready to debate.

    Leave a comment:


  • scfire86
    replied
    Originally posted by doughesson View Post
    If this war was about oil,we'd be getting free oil stipends and the sand dunes in Iraq would collapse as we drained that country.We aren't doing that.
    And where do you get that? Oil companies don't give away money. They'll take as much if not all you are willing to give them.

    But I like the fact you keep putting this up as a point. It only reinforces your lacking a grasp of reality.

    Leave a comment:


  • doughesson
    replied
    Originally posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    There is absolutely NO comparison to then and now. You guys know this...quit bringing it up again and again.

    BS. Numerous inspections over the years did their jobs. Even as late as 2002 nothing had been found...and nothing has yet to be found. It is becoming clearer and clearer as time goes by (even to those with thick heads) that the evidence used to justify the invasion of Iraq were bogus.

    Umm...that was 20 years ago???

    Under George W. Bush and Co., there was absolutely NOTHING Iraq could have done to prevent an invasion. These PNAC wet dreams were in effect LONG before Bush became president. They were going into Iraq, consequences be damned and you know it...even if they had to lie to do it.

    We should leave immediately. Our puppet government will never be able to stand on its own. I'll tell you what...the lies and greed of our corporate driven government and its oil thirsty militaristic ideology, and guys like you that buy into the insanity.
    1.The same concept applies.Hitler murdered as many people as he could for being of the Jewish faith.Hussein killed people of a different sect of his religion for much the same reason.

    2.Inspections were delayed,denied and hassled during the 90s.Don't you watch the evening news?If there WERE CBR weapons in Iraq,he had ample time to get them some where else .
    The documents that were captured in 2003 could have information if they had anything Iraq wasn't supposed to have.The number of translaters being low,it's going to take a while to translate several tons of papers.

    3.USS Stark WAS hit 20 years ago.When it's your cousin's ship,you tend to recall what you were doing when you heard about it.

    4.a.The President had an excellent plan to avoid an invasion:all Hussein had to do was abide by the numerous international conventions from the UN and it wouldn't have come to this."Jaw,jaw,jaw is better than war,war,war"so sayeth Winston Churchhill,but even he recognized that diplomacy has its limits when one side doesn't want to negotiate.
    4.b.How you got the idea President Bush wanted to invade a sovereign nation before he even got elected is beyond me.take your meds and put your tin foil hat back on.

    5.If the government we are helping doesn't stand on its own,it means that the 3,000 plus soldiers who've died will have wasted themselves.Is that what you want?
    We still have troops in Germany to keep the peace,troops in Japan to keep the peace and troops in Korea to keep the peace 62 and 54 YEARS after those wars ended.If they weren't needed to make sure the fighting didn't kick back off there for whatever reason,(and we DID take casualties after VE day)why do you suppose the same isn't needed now?There are people in Iraq that DON'T want to have people voting on what the government does.That is what YOU are supporting,friend.
    If this war was about oil,we'd be getting free oil stipends and the sand dunes in Iraq would collapse as we drained that country.We aren't doing that.

    Leave a comment:


  • MalahatTwo7
    replied
    As a soldier, I can not quite fathom why any person, in a voluntary system, would choose to take up military service at any time. When I was going through my final interview prior to being sworn in (I made a similar oath to those above other than being to Queen and Country ) but before I did that the Air Force Captain made all possible attempts to ensure that I understood:

    1) I was joining an ARMED service

    2) I was likely to be given orders I may not like, from people I might like even less {pretty strong statement from an Air Force Officer LOL}

    3) there was always a possibility of getting into an armed conflict (although in 1987 there didnt seem to be much chance of that)

    4) by being sent into an armed conflict, there was a possibility that I may either become wounded or dead because of it.

    I dont know the look on my face, but I recall saying something like "Sir, those are all hazards of being the army. Every soldier knows those things and you either accept them, or you dont take the job."

    That all said and done, I will give some modicum of respect to the Officer IF he truly believes what he is preaching. Everyone has the right to an opinion, however I think that he chose the wrong profession from the get-go. And as such, has brought upon himself any and all punishments for refusing Command Orders. In this instance, discipline is paramount and it must be enforced.

    Leave a comment:


  • DocVBFDE14
    replied
    Originally posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    Starting wars for regime change is illegal. World history will ultimately judge the invasion of Iraq (and the "Bush Doctrine" in general) as deceitful, immoral, illegal, and needless.

    I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

    "I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)



    As someone in the Military, I took the first oath. He took both oath's. As a volunteer service, this Lt. CHOSE to join the Army. I CHOSE to join the Navy. Privately, do I agree with the United States forgien policy? That is for me to decide. As a United States service member, I follow the orders of those appointed over me. It is not my job to decide forgien policy.

    He decided to take a stand. If he TRUELY believes in his stand, he will plead guilty and take the punishment handed down.

    Leave a comment:


  • scfire86
    replied
    Originally posted by jasper45 View Post
    You are correct, however, a courts-martial often follows to determine if that action was appropriate.
    Just because one person thinks that an order is illegal, that doesn't mean that it is.
    I agree. And it usually puts a tremendous burden upon the defendant to show why they believed the order to illegal.

    Even here, there have been times I have been given "direct orders" to do something questionable. Like establishing a position in a chimney during a wildland fire. I have to be on rock solid ground with procedures and SOP's at the ready in order to validate why I did NOT follow that order. While we may be making life and death decisions, we are fortunate to never have to make them under the same type of duress one finds in military operations. I've never been scared of anyone purposely trying to kill me during a fire or other incident.

    Leave a comment:

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