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  • #16
    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Blind idiocy? Please state the sum total of your police pursuit training. If less than zero were an option, you would have it. Remember, the "swooped in and caused an accident" is from the idiot's statement, not a findingo f the official investigation.

    It makes no difference if you could find a million a day. This guy was doing it AND HE KNOWS BETTER! The trooper had complete probable cause to make this stop. He had complete probable cause for the charges.

    Why don't we talk about the balls on this guy thathe called his dispatch center to "call off the trooper"? Who does he think he is. I don't care what type of emergency he is responding to, he still has the absolute responsibility to obey all the traffic laws, including the laws that say you have to stop when an officer tries to pull you over.

    It is true that police officers have discretion on charging and writing summonses in most instances (most jurisdictions take awaythat discretion is cases involving domestic violence, for example). But the discretion to exercise courtesy rests solely on the officer. Most officers will gladly extend that courtesy to someone with a clean record who demonstrates respect for the law and for the officer. In this case, the idiot mayhave had a clean record, but obviously did not behave in a manner that would be deserving of professional (operative word) courtesy.

    Yes, blinding idiocy. Probable cause doesn't enter into it, and you know it. I agree the guy should not have called his dispatch. Please notice that I stated there were TWO idiots involved.

    As I said, I would be shocked if the trooper's own agency protocols allowed this. Anyone here actually familiar with TSP SOP's?

    Some jurisdictions don't even allow hot pursuits of felony robbery suspects any more. While that is obviously going too far, the point is that a simple risk/benefit calculation needs to apply in this situation as in any other. Which places these kids at greater risk, the guy going 85 or the trooper causing an accident?

    Obviously, this assumes that the account above is correct in its essentials. I don't know that it is. But you don't know that it is not.

    Comment


    • #17
      I don't know that I'd go so far as to call the FF in question a "scumbag", but he sure showed a lack of good judgement. The police officer was well within his rights to stop him for the safety of the public. Since when is 85mph a safe speed for emergency response? (whether in a fire apparattus or a minivan with family)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by SAFD46Truck View Post
        I don't know that I'd go so far as to call the FF in question a "scumbag", but he sure showed a lack of good judgement. The police officer was well within his rights to stop him for the safety of the public. Since when is 85mph a safe speed for emergency response? (whether in a fire apparattus or a minivan with family)
        I don't think anyone is disputing either that the FF was an idiot or that the trooper had the right to pull him over.

        I'm just saying that if the account above is correct (and obviously it is one-sided and may not be) than the troopers actions in forcing the stop are questionable.

        As always in these situations, no one on this board really knows what happened, and we should probably wait for the investigation to be completed before totally making up our minds.

        But the notion that it is OBVIOUS that the trooper did nothing wrong is apparently not shared by his own agency.

        Comment


        • #19
          The guy is an idiot and should have stopped.



          PS. Way to hijack my ladder truck fireturtle !
          ******=================
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          ------GOD BLESS AMERICA ! ------

          Comment


          • #20
            Maybe 85 is faster in other places, but depending on the highway it's not all that extraordinary here - at least in my experience. Many people drive that fast and there doesn't need to be an accident to stop them. I'd be interested in the details of how the cop "swooped in and caused an accident". To wreck a car and risk injury to everyone on the road seems pretty extreme to stop a speeder who isn't even going all that fast. I wish there were more details - although it says the officer did not intend to crash into the minivan. Sounds like he might have been doing a little reckless driving himself!
            Last edited by ChicagoFF; 01-22-2007, 03:27 PM.
            I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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            • #21
              Originally posted by randsc View Post
              Yes, blinding idiocy. Probable cause doesn't enter into it, and you know it. I agree the guy should not have called his dispatch. Please notice that I stated there were TWO idiots involved.

              As I said, I would be shocked if the trooper's own agency protocols allowed this. Anyone here actually familiar with TSP SOP's?

              Some jurisdictions don't even allow hot pursuits of felony robbery suspects any more. While that is obviously going too far, the point is that a simple risk/benefit calculation needs to apply in this situation as in any other. Which places these kids at greater risk, the guy going 85 or the trooper causing an accident?

              Obviously, this assumes that the account above is correct in its essentials. I don't know that it is. But you don't know that it is not.
              ECHO ECHO ECHO ECHO
              Capt. Brownie


              Remember our fallen brothers in Charleston
              God bless the Charleston 9 and the Salisbury 2

              Turtle Power

              GIT-R-DONE

              OUT OF MY MIND.... BACK IN 10 MINUTES

              [||]|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|==|
              _/-|]~|__|==|==|_{}|
              _|_! =_ ! ____---_++!|
              [|--(O)----==----(O)----]

              Comment


              • #22
                I will say this, I know of a few places where LEO's are not allowed hot pursuits anymore. However, a hot pursuit is not a simple speeding stop. A hot pursuit is over a considerable distance, at a high rate of speed, for a prolonged period of time. It does not entail a trooper, or other LEO, pulling out into traffic, lighting the guy up, and then trying to get him to pull over.

                The trooper causing the accident is the only part in question here, not whether he was justified in the stop to begin with, he obviously was. If we knew why he ended up in front of the car, it'd be a big help.

                Comment


                • #23
                  removal at the least

                  85 mph in a POV with children on board
                  some above state 2 idiots involved, probably 3, 90% the firefighter (soon to be ex-firefighter, I surely hope!), 9% the wife for not makining him 1. drive sanely, 2. stop for the trooper, 3. immeadiately find his chief and have him turn in his gear, and 1% the trooper, if he was contacted by radio and knew where this idiot (ex-Ff) was going could have continued to the hall and taken him down hard like he deserves, instead of whatever he did to contribute to the accident.
                  Children (plural) so multiple charges of indangering the welfare of a child, plain old reckless driving, faliure to yield, speeding 30 mph over the limit, he should end up in jail let alone out of dept. and fined up the wazooo....
                  (should now be CharlieRFD,past,Pres.), but I've had this screen name for so long, I'm keeping it..., besides I'm Deputy Chief now.
                  BE SAFE OUT THERE
                  NEVER FORGET
                  GOD BLESS THE 343 AND 60, MAY GOD GRANT HIS PEACE TO THEIR LOVED ONES.
                  IACOJ
                  F.O.O.P.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    When the hell did George start posting again!?
                    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      And..........

                      As others have said, we weren't there. And so, we shouldn't be throwing stones all over the place (snowballs maybe, particularly around here today) I'll wait for the investigation to conclude........
                      Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                      In memory of
                      Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                      Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                      IACOJ Budget Analyst

                      I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

                      www.gdvfd18.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Wasn't there, but is it possible the "damage" was caused by the "whacker with his hazard lights on" trying to swerve around the police car?

                        I can also say this, with very probable certainty, that if I called my dispatcher and asked them to call the State Police on the phone and have their trooper stop trying to pull me over...the laughter coming back over the radio would be a huge clue.
                        "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Both the wacker and the patrolman should have a time out, imo

                          going only by the posted newspaper article, both succumbed to an addrenaline charged case of cranial rectal inversion syndrome.

                          Running hot with kids is a big no no. Running hot with the wife is excuseable if she leans out the window and acts like a q siren (just kidding)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by doughesson View Post
                            And giving the guy a warning to drive like a sane person would isn't a viable option?
                            In this case? Not a chance. We're not talking about a volunteer sneaking in a few extra mph or Hollywood-stopping some back road intersection. We're talking grossly excessive speed, child endangerment, and failing to pull over for a duly appointed and clearly identified LEO.

                            Originally posted by doughesson View Post
                            If someone is assigned to drive an emergency vehicle,would it matter if they are in a Pierce Enforcer or a Chrysler Town and Country minivan?
                            Of course it would: the minivan wasn't an emergency vehicle and shouldn't have been driven as if it was.

                            There are times when cutting somebody a little slack is justified. This wasn't one of them.
                            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                            sigpic
                            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Snow in Md

                              Originally posted by hwoods View Post
                              As others have said, we weren't there. And so, we shouldn't be throwing stones all over the place (snowballs maybe, particularly around here today) I'll wait for the investigation to conclude........

                              how much 17 1/2 flakes??? I've been down throught your area, and have family south of you, Hollywood, Lexington Park area, they lose it when people mention snow. ( Oh yeah I can talk 30 miles east of Buffalo, NY) lol
                              (should now be CharlieRFD,past,Pres.), but I've had this screen name for so long, I'm keeping it..., besides I'm Deputy Chief now.
                              BE SAFE OUT THERE
                              NEVER FORGET
                              GOD BLESS THE 343 AND 60, MAY GOD GRANT HIS PEACE TO THEIR LOVED ONES.
                              IACOJ
                              F.O.O.P.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CharlieRFDPres View Post

                                how much 17 1/2 flakes??? I've been down throught your area, and have family south of you, Hollywood, Lexington Park area, they lose it when people mention snow. ( Oh yeah I can talk 30 miles east of Buffalo, NY) lol

                                To quote the great moral philosopher Homer Simpson: "It's funny because its true!"

                                I lived in DC for two years, and a dusting that at home would be described as "no accumulation" could shut down the city for a day and a half.

                                Of course, in NH we would have no idea how to respond to a natural disaster like Marion Berry. So it all works out.

                                Comment

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