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  • #46
    Originally posted by ThNozzleman
    Here's some logic for you...most of the right wingers who worry so much about what the evil invasion from Mexico is costing us were voracious supporters of the invasion of Iraq, a stupid war based on lies that is costing the U.S. taxpayer $177 million per DAY, with thousands upon thousands dead and maimed for life. And now they're worried about immigrants who are here working to better themselves getting health care for their sick children??? Nice.
    Some people need to get their priorities straight.

    And this what to do with anything we are discussing?

    So would you then be in favor of using all of that money to man the border and enforce the laws that we have as a nation?

    As I said, I am not only against ILLEGAL (you conveniently - dare I say intentionally) leave that word out of your statements. As most people wish to do to try to change the point of the argument - immigration on all fronts regardless of the nation or continent of origin. I couldn't care less what your skin color is, what your native language is, or who the hell your ancesters are. Enter any nation, regardless of its location, using that nations laws and channels.

    Of course, as you have implied - I am against anyone who is not a Caucasian entering this country. How Hitler-esque of me.

    Being as the Mexicans are not a race. Nor are the Brazilians (of which Massachusetts has a HUGE contingent of ILLEGALLY immigrated Brazilians), or anyone else from Central or South America. There are only 4 races on this planet - Negroid (Black), Caucasian, Mongoloid (Asian), and what used to be known as the American Indian. At least that is what I was taught by my Caucasian Anglo-Saxon, union, teachers in Massachusetts. We are all mixes of these various races based upon location and our ancestor's past.

    So stop making this argument against me about race/ethnicity/nationality. It is about law, security, and controlling effects on a nation's economy as well as numerous other factors. I am sure that you will ignore this, as you usually do, but I will ask that you not do so.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by DaSharkie
      Because as I see it, there are not whords of people rowing boats, running across the Atlantic, or Northern Pacific Oceans, nor beating doen the doors from Africa to come here ILLEGALLY (realizing that you probably do not like that moniker - I will say KNOWINGLY violating the laws and sanctity of a sovereign nation.

      My ancesters came across the Atlantic Ocean as well, of their own volition and followed all the orders, mandates, and laws required to enter this country from Ellis Island and other (for lack of a better word) clearing houses for immigrants wishing to come and enjoy the freedom and prosperity that a new land offers them.
      Thing is they did not have nearly the number of laws, orders, and mandates to adhere to, and they were not competeing for a pathetically low number of work visas while American unemployment was virtually nil.
      Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
      -Big Russ

      Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

      Originally posted by nyckftbl
      LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

      Comment


      • #48
        All it did was move the crossers from San Diego to other points to the east along the border.
        Correct, but the fence did work in those areas, hence their reasoning for building more fence & more patrol. I agree this isn't the solution; perhaps it is a temporary fix till a solution can be agreed upon.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by DaSharkie
          It is about law, security, and controlling effects on a nation's economy as well as numerous other factors.
          It is about bad law though, the same thing that lead to the American Revolution. Do you want hordes of recent immigrants rising up against the masses of longer term immigrants? Or would you rather have a simple policy change that can both account for the immigrants, allow our economy to have the needed workers, and most of all make it easier for law-enforcement to pick out the real bad actors and terrorists? Or do you just want to build a wall with a tiny door and tell the hordes that have not gotten here yet to get in the long long line while the hordes that are now trapped in side the wall get antsy?
          Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
          -Big Russ

          Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

          Originally posted by nyckftbl
          LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

          Comment


          • #50
            Here's some logic for you...most of the right wingers who worry so much about what the evil invasion from Mexico is costing us were voracious supporters of the invasion of Iraq, a stupid war based on lies that is costing the U.S. taxpayer $177 million per DAY, with thousands upon thousands dead and maimed for life. And now they're worried about immigrants who are here working to better themselves getting health care for their sick children??? Nice.
            Obviously they are both issues that need to be worked out at the federal level. How about we focus on the issue that this thread is about? If you want to talk about Iraq, make a thread for that. If you want to scold republicans, make a thread for that.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by emtbff927
              Correct, but the fence did work in those areas, hence their reasoning for building more fence & more patrol. I agree this isn't the solution; perhaps it is a temporary fix till a solution can be agreed upon.
              So it helped that area by making things worse for another area. The only solution is a policy change, not throwing money at a wall. Give out more than 10,000 low skilled visas a year, and they won't have to come in illegally they will have a legit process to follow that we currently deny them.
              Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
              -Big Russ

              Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

              Originally posted by nyckftbl
              LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by ThNozzleman
                Here's some logic for you...most of the right wingers who worry so much about what the evil invasion from Mexico is costing us were voracious supporters of the invasion of Iraq, a stupid war based on lies that is costing the U.S. taxpayer $177 million per DAY, with thousands upon thousands dead and maimed for life. And now they're worried about immigrants who are here working to better themselves getting health care for their sick children??? Nice.
                Some people need to get their priorities straight.
                Funny that it is Bush who is pushing the hardest for reasonable immigration policy reform, not a fence or wall.
                Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
                -Big Russ

                Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

                Originally posted by nyckftbl
                LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Funny that it is Bush who is pushing the hardest for reasonable immigration policy reform, not a fence or wall.
                  You mean ILLEGAL immigration reform.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    So it helped that area by making things worse for another area. The only solution is a policy change, not throwing money at a wall. Give out more than 10,000 low skilled visas a year, and they won't have to come in illegally they will have a legit process to follow that we currently deny them.
                    Or build more wall...like they are going to do. Something must be done while we wait to agree on a long-term solution.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by emtbff927
                      You mean ILLEGAL immigration reform.
                      No, immigration reform. He sees the futility in building a fence that won't stretch across the entire border. He knows that the folks sneaking across in general only want to work, and they only sneak in to fill the jobs we need filled because we offer so few visas. That is real reform. If people would work together rather than slinging mud at each other over the issue, we could have a policy change in weeks or months rather than a wall/fence that would take tons of money and many years to build.
                      Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
                      -Big Russ

                      Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

                      Originally posted by nyckftbl
                      LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
                        It is about bad law though, the same thing that lead to the American Revolution. Do you want hordes of recent immigrants rising up against the masses of longer term immigrants? Or would you rather have a simple policy change that can both account for the immigrants, allow our economy to have the needed workers, and most of all make it easier for law-enforcement to pick out the real bad actors and terrorists? Or do you just want to build a wall with a tiny door and tell the hordes that have not gotten here yet to get in the long long line while the hordes that are now trapped in side the wall get antsy?
                        If it is a bad law, then push to change the immigration laws - as you are doing.

                        The job of the United States should not be to cure another nation's failure to provide for their own citizens well-being (on many fronts).

                        When Mexico does not allow foreign nationals to take on jobs within its own government then why should we have a wide open border? When Mexico itself has armed troops on its own Southern border to step its own flow of ILLEGAL mmigration, then why are we "Racist" or "Jingoistic" for wanting it as well?

                        The wall, ALONG WITH resonable reform of immigration laws is necessary. And an unfunded mandate to build a wall is pathetic. Security measures along the entire border, as well as better container and security measures are necessary.

                        As a society we pay a huge portion of our monetary spending paying for accidents, health care (though that is not as large a chunk as many might think), and other needs for people who have entered our nation not using the "official" channels. I realize that the process is difficult, but if people from all over the world can wait to come here (as I have previously mentioned) so can everyone else.

                        Reform the beaurocracy, trim the fat, get the proper things done. But if our nation has a 5% unemployment rate - why not get all of our folks employed? Stem the flow of jobs from Maytag and Kenmore and GM and everyone else to keep our folks employed?

                        This includes migrant farming. There are lots of jobs people are willing to do. Pay them a wage and they will do it.
                        "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

                        The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

                        "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

                        "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

                        www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
                          No, immigration reform. He sees the futility in building a fence that won't stretch across the entire border. He knows that the folks sneaking across in general only want to work, and they only sneak in to fill the jobs we need filled because we offer so few visas. That is real reform. If people would work together rather than slinging mud at each other over the issue, we could have a policy change in weeks or months rather than a wall/fence that would take tons of money and many years to build.
                          You are right, but it must be a multi-pronged approach. The idea of 10,000 visas is a pathetic drop in the bucket considering the hundreds of thousands of people coming into our country every year.

                          It would not take tons of money or years to build if: A) it were done right, and B) you get the politician's fat little hands out of the till when it is being bid and built.
                          "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

                          The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

                          "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

                          "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

                          www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by DaSharkie
                            You are right, but it must be a multi-pronged approach. The idea of 10,000 visas is a pathetic drop in the bucket considering the hundreds of thousands of people coming into our country every year.

                            It would not take tons of money or years to build if: A) it were done right, and B) you get the politician's fat little hands out of the till when it is being bid and built.
                            I am not worried about politicians having their hands in the till, look at Duke Cunningham, he is going to jail for skiming a few million in cash, that is a drop in the bucket for the costs of a 1600 mile wall. I am concerned with construction unions bickering and causing delays due to greed, I am concerned with contractors cooking th books to charge more due to greed, I am concerned with bad oversight, due to lack of resources for inspectors due to stingyness. This would be the largest public works project since the Interstate Highway system.

                            It will be very tough for someone to convince me that a physical barrier will be more effective in the long run than a real change in policy.
                            Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
                            -Big Russ

                            Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

                            Originally posted by nyckftbl
                            LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by DaSharkie
                              Reform the beaurocracy, trim the fat, get the proper things done. But if our nation has a 5% unemployment rate - why not get all of our folks employed? Stem the flow of jobs from Maytag and Kenmore and GM and everyone else to keep our folks employed?

                              This includes migrant farming. There are lots of jobs people are willing to do. Pay them a wage and they will do it.
                              Sharkie. I say this with all respect. We have a neighborhood in OC where this belief would be at home. It's called FANTASYLAND. I respect your position. In the past you have made your points with factual assertions and NOT knee jerk emotional reactions.

                              The business community that I referred to earlier has way too much interest in maintaining the status quo won't allow this to happen. Until that group is affected adversely this is nothing more than 'pie in the sky' false hope. The social costs the rest of us shoulder are of no concern to them.
                              Last edited by scfire86; 10-31-2006, 02:54 PM.
                              I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm saying you have bad luck when it comes to thinking.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by DaSharkie
                                If it is a bad law, then push to change the immigration laws - as you are doing.

                                The job of the United States should not be to cure another nation's failure to provide for their own citizens well-being (on many fronts).

                                When Mexico does not allow foreign nationals to take on jobs within its own government then why should we have a wide open border? When Mexico itself has armed troops on its own Southern border to step its own flow of ILLEGAL mmigration, then why are we "Racist" or "Jingoistic" for wanting it as well?
                                Just because Mexico is Jingoistic does not mean we should be the same. They don't have the jobs and can't support the immigrants the way that we can. A lot of what I like about being American is that we have in the past welcomed immigrants to this experiment in democracy and prosperity. 75 years ago ditch diggers from Italy came over and were given crap for wanting to help give their families a better life, 100 years ago it was the Irish, 125 years ago it was the Germans, usually it was not the cream of the society that came over here unless it was to escape political persecution, the high skilled and high society folks had no reason to come to America until the regime they supported fell. It took a million Irish men to get one Andrew Carnegy, it took a few million Germans to get one Henry Kissinger, how many great latino/chicano men from humble beginings might the world miss out on due to our attempts at blocking the current wave of immigrants?

                                Originally posted by DaSharkie
                                The wall, ALONG WITH resonable reform of immigration laws is necessary. And an unfunded mandate to build a wall is pathetic. Security measures along the entire border, as well as better container and security measures are necessary.

                                As a society we pay a huge portion of our monetary spending paying for accidents, health care (though that is not as large a chunk as many might think), and other needs for people who have entered our nation not using the "official" channels. I realize that the process is difficult, but if people from all over the world can wait to come here (as I have previously mentioned) so can everyone else.
                                All that is keeping the numbers from Asia lower than the numbers from the southern continent is the width of the Pacific Ocean, yet there are still well over ten thousand folks from Asia getting into the U.S. illegally every year.
                                Originally posted by DaSharkie
                                Reform the beaurocracy, trim the fat, get the proper things done. But if our nation has a 5% unemployment rate - why not get all of our folks employed? Stem the flow of jobs from Maytag and Kenmore and GM and everyone else to keep our folks employed?

                                This includes migrant farming. There are lots of jobs people are willing to do. Pay them a wage and they will do it.
                                The unemployment rate is below 5% while the help wanted ads in the newspaper are an entire thick section. Migrant farming wages are not great, you won't get rich off them, but they are pretty darn good considering, yet you don't see Americans packing up the family and following the jobs around much.
                                Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
                                -Big Russ

                                Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

                                Originally posted by nyckftbl
                                LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

                                Comment

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