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  • WTC cross

    Sep 9, 2003 7:42 am US/Eastern
    (TRENTON, N.J.) A steel beam in the shape of a cross from the World Trade Center wreckage has drawn criticism from an atheist group.

    The American Atheists objects to the cross at ground zero because they say it's a religious emblem.

    Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists based in New Jersey, told The Trentonian newspaper that the cross is -- in her words -- ``a Christian religious advertisement.'' Johnson said allowing the cross to remain, is -- in her words -- ``an insult to everyone who doesn't believe in that particular religion.''

    The group, founded by the late Madelyn Murray O'Hare, is considering a lawsuit to prevent the cross from becoming part of any permanent memorial to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

    Too bad she is so insulted, but I think there are alot more people that believe in God then don't. Tanker
    I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

    "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
    Gunny Ermey


    "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


    Humpty Dumpty was pushed

    Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

  • #2
    Here's a solution for her............ if ya don't like it avert your damn eyes and DON'T look.
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

    IACOJ-WOT proud

    GO WHITE SOX!!!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree with Pfire on this one. While you have a right to express your opinion in the US, others also have the right to ignore you and/or tell you to bug off. It's gotten to the point where anything offends someone. There's lots of stuff going on that I don't like. I don't whine about it, I ignore it. This is just a way for someone to jump up and down and say "look at me."
      Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
      Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

      These statements are mine and mine alone
      I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

      Comment


      • #4
        Don't get me started...
        Resident Chaplain of the IACOJ

        Comment


        • #5
          This is just a way for someone to jump up and down and say "look at me."
          CJ- I agree. If you don't like it don't look at it. If there is something I do not like to look at, I don't look at it. Along with freedom of expression, we also have freedom of choice in this country. Anyway as the Rev said...don't get me started.....

          Cheffie

          Comment


          • #6
            Don't get me started...
            That's what I just said to Tanker

            Think its a weeeeee bit more important of a cause to fight for to make sure that the victims who have not been identified have a proper burial at the WTC?? To btch and complain about a piece of debris which gave millions of people hope in a dark dark time, regardless of their religious or non-religious beliefs??!! These people need to get a grip!!
            Last edited by RspctFrmCalgary; 09-09-2003, 11:59 AM.
            September 11th - Never Forget

            I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

            Sheri
            IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
            Honorary Flatlander

            RAY WAS HERE FIRST

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CJMinick390
              I agree with Pfire on this one. While you have a right to express your opinion in the US, others also have the right to ignore you and/or tell you to bug off. It's gotten to the point where anything offends someone. There's lots of stuff going on that I don't like. I don't whine about it, I ignore it. This is just a way for someone to jump up and down and say "look at me."
              Amen to CJMinick's post. I'm not particularly religious and strongly support efforts to separate government from religion and vice versa.

              As I understand it, the WTC cross was a naturally left there as part of the collapse (as unnatural the collapse was). I don't recall hearing anyone saying that the workers at Ground Zero cut the beams to actually FORM a cross. This is something that happened as a result of a major tragedy. Some people find their own particular comfort in seeing a christian symbol appear out of such destruction and may interpret it as a sign from God. Others, like myself, may see it as one symbol in a tragedy that has inspired 3,000+ symbols, including the now-famous number 343.

              Hope that made sense.

              Comment


              • #8
                Niel...I do beleive you are correct.... Those two beams were cause as a result of a natural phenomenon.

                In response to the group.... I agree with those who say..."don't look!" If that does not work...MOVE! Try living in Afghanistan or Iraq...I don't beleive they have crosses there....just crosshares from a terrorist's gun!

                I see the reverand is biting his tongue
                Last edited by captstanm1; 09-09-2003, 06:53 PM.
                09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                ------------------------------
                IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                BMI Investigator
                ------------------------------
                The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The rev is indeed biting his tongue.

                  Come on, Rev, lets hear your thoughts.

                  Tanker
                  I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

                  "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
                  Gunny Ermey


                  "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


                  Humpty Dumpty was pushed

                  Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes, the debris fell naturally into the form of the cross. It wasn't "deliberately" raised on behalf of Christians. It WAS like Neil said, a symbol rising out of the destruction that many took comfort from.
                    September 11th - Never Forget

                    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

                    Sheri
                    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
                    Honorary Flatlander

                    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: WTC cross

                      Originally posted by tanker5117
                      The American Atheists objects to the cross at ground zero because they say it's a religious emblem.

                      Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists based in New Jersey, told The Trentonian newspaper that the cross is -- in her words -- ``a Christian religious advertisement.'' Johnson said allowing the cross to remain, is -- in her words -- ``an insult to everyone who doesn't believe in that particular religion.''
                      The great Constitution of the United States guarantees a person's freedom OF religion - it protects the right to choose to worship however you wish. The Constitution does not guarantee freedom FROM religion.

                      The law does not state that relious symbols and references cannot be displayed. It simply protects the citizens of our Nation from the government mandating a particular form of worship as the King of England did a few hundred years ago - thus causing a bunch of folks to move here and form the United States of America.

                      I respect the American Athiests choice not to acknowlege the God whom I serve. However, if the members of this organization knew what they were doing, they would insist that every human and animal were killed, every tree cut down, every star removed from the sky. Because these are all things that HE created and they proclaim His Glorious Majesty.
                      Resident Chaplain of the IACOJ

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well put, Rev.
                        Chris Minick, P.E., Firefighter II
                        Structures Specialist, MD-TF 1

                        These statements are mine and mine alone
                        I.A.C.O.J. Building crust and proud of it

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          These people claim we, as Christians, are pushing our ideals upon them. However, by taking away a natural phenomenon and taking words like "Under God" out from the Pledge, they are forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

                          If you don't want to see a cross...don't look at it!

                          If you don't want to say "Under God"...don't say it!

                          If you don't like "In God We Trust"...don't use our money!...oh wait...they don't complain about that.

                          We don't force them to say or look at anything because we respect their rights. In just return, they should respect ours.
                          IACOJ Agitator
                          Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I heard that "coo coo clock" on the Laura Ingraham show on the radio the other night last night while I was putting around in my garage.

                            She stated that she would have no problem with the "Ground Zero cross" if the Atheists symbol was also displayed on the site...

                            What a (expletive deleted) hypocrite!
                            ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                            Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              you mean there is an atheists sysmbol? what is it, nothing?


                              Tanker
                              I.A.C.O.J. Firefighter/EMT-B

                              "I'm gonna drill a hole in your skull and pump out all the stupidity"
                              Gunny Ermey


                              "Never underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"


                              Humpty Dumpty was pushed

                              Polishing the Chrome on all the IACOJ "apparati"

                              Comment

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