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SOP Stupidity

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  • tree68
    replied
    There's another "layer" to SOP's and SOG's - "Best Practices." I've heard the term described as less restrictive that either an SOP or an SOG.

    In the end, though, it does come down to the action one takes being defensible if it doesn't square with whatever the document is called.

    It would seem to me that each actually has a place. SOP's for those things that need to be done just so, SOG's and/or best practices for things that usually go best when done as described but are subject to variables, as HSV mentions.

    As Fyred points out, including a disclaimer to those that may need to bent from time to time helps, too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mcvfire
    replied
    As my EMR instructor says "Theres no SOP for the poor idiot who fell out of a tree and hit every branch on the way down into a bonfire"

    Leave a comment:


  • captnjak
    replied
    Originally posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Bazookas are so passe... I prefer an RPG... (and for those who cannot comprehend my post, it is sarcasm.... )
    Too late! PC police are surrounding your house at this very moment.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeputyChiefGonzo
    replied
    Originally posted by Highschoolvolunteer View Post
    The way it is with my other department, SOPs are the rigid 'you may not do this' type of rules, whereas the SOGs are 'We understand that the fireground is dynamic, so you may do this, this, or this, at your discretion.

    The part about the 'way out' is sickening. It seems like way too many people are concerned with covering their arse than with what needs to be done.

    I see your point about how they have to spell it out. I am sure someone, somewhere came to work with a bazooka!
    Bazookas are so passe... I prefer an RPG... (and for those who cannot comprehend my post, it is sarcasm.... )

    Leave a comment:


  • Highschoolvolunteer
    replied
    The way it is with my other department, SOPs are the rigid 'you may not do this' type of rules, whereas the SOGs are 'We understand that the fireground is dynamic, so you may do this, this, or this, at your discretion.

    The part about the 'way out' is sickening. It seems like way too many people are concerned with covering their arse than with what needs to be done.

    I see your point about how they have to spell it out. I am sure someone, somewhere came to work with a bazooka!

    Leave a comment:


  • Chenzo
    replied
    As much as it pains me to say it, they have to be that detailed, and that dumbed down, because some people don't think, can't think, or simply have no common sense.

    The last time something got brought up at Dept 1 that several of us thought was common sense, but wasn't in the bylaws, it turned into a gigantic schitt show, because it wasn't in the bylaws/SOG's. So while I hate the fact that when I read SOG's, I feel like I'm being treated like a kindergartner, I completely understand why they are so dumbed down, and explain everything.

    Leave a comment:


  • CaptOldTimer
    replied
    SOP's, SOG's, are exactly that. They are guidelines which a department writes, so the members will have a clear view and idea how the COD wants the department ran or I should say, what he expects the member to abide with.

    Having said that, most SOP's and or SOG's are just guidelines. You can't live by that alone. Some are stretched and some are bent in some way.

    If one say's "No firearms im the fire house", it simply means that. Leave them at home or locked up in your car or POV.

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    It's easy to make them flexible. We put a statement in the beginning of ours that says something like this:

    "These Standard Operating Guidelines are a guideline to begin operations but because the emergency scene is fluid and ever changing we recognize that variances and changes from these guidelines may be necessary for a positive outcome. The Incident Commander has the power to deviate from these SOGs if the circumstances call for it."

    Just more cover your *** BS that may or may not mean a damn thing in the end.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    According to our department attorney...the only legal difference between a SOP and a SOG is 1 letter.

    Either way...they are your defined operations and you better be able to defend why you didn't follow them.

    Leave a comment:


  • captnjak
    replied
    Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    Im confused -- aren't SOPs( standard operating Procedure) -? Which I understood to be more rigid than SOGs (standard operating guidelines)- I was always under the impression that guidelines gave some leeway to the working men, and the higher ups an out if someone following a rigid procedure(which may prove flawed) gets someone hurt. Maybe old age has set in, and it was the other way around.
    I would tend to agree although it may just be a matter of semantics. One department's SOP may be the equivalent of another department's SOG.

    Either way they shouldn't be so rigid as to get someone hurt. We have clear SOP's for everything but the IC can alter them at any time (as long as he has a good reason).

    Leave a comment:


  • slackjawedyokel
    replied
    Originally posted by Miller337 View Post
    I don't entirely agree with you on this bro. If every incident we went to was exactly the same with the same personnel and equipment we could right SOGs for everything. But I kinda think it has been a lot of years for you, and you haven't made it to that second exactly the same incident with exactly the same people and equipment.
    Im confused -- aren't SOPs( standard operating Procedure) -? Which I understood to be more rigid than SOGs (standard operating guidelines)- I was always under the impression that guidelines gave some leeway to the working men, and the higher ups an out if someone following a rigid procedure(which may prove flawed) gets someone hurt. Maybe old age has set in, and it was the other way around.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miller337
    replied
    Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    The dumbest thing is having SOPs as opposed to SOGs.
    I don't entirely agree with you on this bro. If every incident we went to was exactly the same with the same personnel and equipment we could right SOGs for everything. But I kinda think it has been a lot of years for you, and you haven't made it to that second exactly the same incident with exactly the same people and equipment.

    Leave a comment:


  • slackjawedyokel
    replied
    The dumbest thing is having SOPs as opposed to SOGs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miller337
    replied
    Look now laddie as we get old and tired we need to do things to amuse ourselves which doesn't require a great deal of physical effort. So we tend to look for ways to do this without leaving our desks whenever possible. You are part of a wonderful pool of ready victims to screw with lad, young, brash, easily excited, oh so smart after somehow getting though the academy. Let old men have a little fun before they die will you kid. You snot up again I'll write an SOP about arranging the silverware in the silverware drawer and send it out to ALL my old crustie friends who will send it to ALL their old crustie friends one of whom along the way will put it in the new updated SOPs you'll receive in your box. See how this works now laddie?

    Leave a comment:


  • fire49
    replied
    Not a sop fan, but if they are not in place hard to discipline a person

    And unfortunately you have to spell out the absurd, to avoid loop holes

    Yes we have some like yours that everyone is in violation because of the wording
    But ours are reviewed on an ongoing basis to clean them up

    Leave a comment:

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