Stven Hawking SAYS SO!

[abeth86]

Entropy and thermodynamics, ChiefKN. They move things from orderly to disorderly.

It's the same reason your desk gets cluttered after a while.

Of course, the doesn't explain something from nothing. Doesn't gravity require the existence of something?

[DeputyMarshal]

When you boil all the science down, things are just a tad to orderly to be random.

Right up until you realize that the Universe has been becoming more and more disorderly ever since the Big Bang. Don't let the little local eddies of random order fool you.

[voyager9]

Science can never disprove the existence of a leprechaun. No matter how deep science digs, there's always a deeper layer whose relationships could have been established/engineered/designed by leprechauns.

Of course it can't.. it can, however, prove who stole my Lucky Charms.

[voyager9]

All scientists know this; it's essentially impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. As you said, there's no evidence that proves that a higher power doesn't exist nor is there any objective indication whatsoever that one does.

This was a good quote from the comments in the article:

Although I am sure it will make no difference but one further point, science can say nothing meaningful about what cannot be falsified, ie if there is not an acceptable test (experiment) that could potentially disprove a hypothesis then it cannot be included in a scientific explanation. In fact without such a test the existence of god is an axiom that one either accepts or denies and then you world view goes from there. The flip side of this is that using god as a force or energy to explain physical/biological phenomena is not science, it may well be an explanation that works for you but they are two separate logical paradigms and efforts to mix them create unsolvable logical muddles like we see in this thread

[voyager9]

I think the older and smarter I get the more open I am to the idea of some supreme being. Odd as you might think the opposite were true based on a "belief" in science.

Or: The closer you are to the finish line, the more you hope there's a judge at the end and not just a brick wall.

It just makes my head stop hurting when I watch these shows and read about the size and creation of the universe. When you boil all the science down, things are just a tad to orderly to be random.

I'm expecting my first child. Learning/reading/watching about the development process makes me think you're right.

Specifically: If the mutations that underlie evolution are random then for every "good" mutation (that work out) there must be XXX-"bad" mutations (that don't). Given the complexity of life the sheer number of mutations required, even spread across the millions of years, would be visible within a few generations.

[ChiefKN]

I think the older and smarter I get the more open I am to the idea of some supreme being. Odd as you might think the opposite were true based on a "belief" in science.

It just makes my head stop hurting when I watch these shows and read about the size and creation of the universe. When you boil all the science down, things are just a tad to orderly to be random.

Now my head hurts again....

[DeputyMarshal]

Can't you believe in science and God? I do.

"Believing" in science and g_d(s) isn't a conflict. The conflicts tend to arise with believing in dogmatic religions that contradict science.

[BSFD9302]

Can't you believe in science and God? I do.

[abeth86]

[ThNozzleman]

Science can never disprove the existence of a higher power/god. No matter how deep Science digs, there's always a deeper layer whose relationships could have been established/engineered/designed by said power.

Science can never disprove the existence of a leprechaun. No matter how deep science digs, there's always a deeper layer whose relationships could have been established/engineered/designed by leprechauns.

[MarcusKspn]

All scientists know this; it's essentially impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.

How does that old quote go:

Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence...

[DeputyMarshal]

Science can never disprove the existence of a higher power/god. No matter how deep Science digs, there's always a deeper layer whose relationships could have been established/engineered/designed by said power.

All scientists know this; it's essentially impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. As you said, there's no evidence that proves that a higher power doesn't exist nor is there any objective indication whatsoever that one does.

He isn't saying Science disproves god, but rather science disproves RELIGION.

It certainly disproves a literal interpretation of most of them.

[MalahatTwo7]

I want to be completely clear: I did not write any of the commentary you read above, except for the "dont shoot the messenger" statement.

M27

[voyager9]

Just don't shoot the Messenger, OK!


"Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist," he writes in "The Grand Design", which is being serialised by The Times newspaper.

Who wrote the law of gravity then? Science can never disprove the existence of a higher power/god. No matter how deep Science digs, there's always a deeper layer whose relationships could have been established/engineered/designed by said power.

"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions — the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass — far less remarkable, and far less compelling as evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he wrote.

Ahh, but that's a different axiom. He isn't saying Science disproves god, but rather science disproves RELIGION. Which is human's attempt to describe/interpret/predict/control god. In that context this is similar to the position that Copernicus/Kepler/Galileo took with heliocentrism

[MalahatTwo7]

Just don't shoot the Messenger, OK!


God did not create Universe: Hawking

AFP September 2, 2010 8:12 AM Comments (92)

God no longer has any place in theories on the creation of the Universe due to a series of developments in physics, British scientist Stephen Hawking, pictured, said in extracts published Thursday from a new book.

LONDON - God no longer has any place in theories on the creation of the Universe due to a series of developments in physics, British scientist Stephen Hawking said in extracts published Thursday from a new book.

In a hardening of the more accommodating position on religion that he took in his 1988 international best-seller "A Brief History of Time", Hawking said the Big Bang was merely the consequence of the law of gravity.

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist," he writes in "The Grand Design", which is being serialised by The Times newspaper.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going," added the wheelchair-bound expert.

Hawking has achieved worldwide fame for his research, writing and television documentaries despite suffering since the age of 21 motor neurone disease that has left him disabled and dependent on a voice synthesiser.

In "A Brief History of Time", Hawking had suggested that the idea of God or a divine being was not necessarily incompatible with a scientific understanding of the Universe.

But in his latest work, Hawking cites the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting a star outside our own Solar System as a turning point against Isaac Newton's belief that the Universe could not have arisen out of chaos.

"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions — the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass — far less remarkable, and far less compelling as evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he wrote.

Hawking argued earlier this year that mankind's only chance of long-term survival lies in colonizing space, as humans drain Earth of resources and face a terrifying array of new threats.

He also warned in a recent television series that mankind should avoid contact with aliens at all costs, as the consequences could be devastating.

© Copyright (c) AFP

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God no longer has any place in theories on the creation of the Universe due to a series of developments in physics, British scientist Stephen Hawking, pictured, said in extracts published Thursday from a new book.
Photograph by: Handout, via Postmedia News

anonymous
9:31 AM on September 2, 2010

wow, it frightens me to think that smart & intellectual people will burn in Hell because they drove themselves out of belief of God.

Free_man
9:24 AM on September 2, 2010

Although I am sure it will make no difference but one further point, science can say nothing meaningful about what cannot be falsified, ie if there is not an acceptable test (experiment) that could potentially disprove a hypothesis then it cannot be included in a scientific explanation. In fact without such a test the existence of god is an axiom that one either accepts or denies and then you world view goes from there. The flip side of this is that using god as a force or energy to explain physical/biological phenomena is not science, it may well be an explanation that works for you but they are two separate logical paradigms and efforts to mix them create unsolvable logical muddles like we see in this thread

anonymous
9:22 AM on September 2, 2010

i agree. i don't think god created the universe....with all the religions out there and all the books about god, you would think that most religions would have more in common...think about it!!!!

Free_man
9:14 AM on September 2, 2010

Truth/Justice
Thanks for the input, whackjob

anonymous
9:11 AM on September 2, 2010

He has all this tme to think and do not much else and this is the best he can come up with? He needs to get away from it all. Recharge his batteries (figuratively). Oh I guess he can't do that. So much for a balanced perspective.

survayman12
9:06 AM on September 2, 2010

Read the article. He did not say that "God does not exist".

Truth/Justice
9:05 AM on September 2, 2010

11:54am-And David Suzuki needs to stop apologizing to the environment for being born and leaving footprints.

Truth/Justice
9:02 AM on September 2, 2010

11:46am-I'll be waiting with bated breath until someone answers those questions!! Ahh...the foolishness of God SO confounds the wisdom of Man.
Am curious how Hawking would explain the fact the earth is tilted on its' axis at just the right angle to prevent us from burning up...good planning by someone; and if that someone cares that we don't burn up, that someone just might care about lots of other things.

anonymous
9:00 AM on September 2, 2010

Medical science would have people with his ailment not living nearly as long as he has. Sometimes experts and scientists are wrong. If I was in his condition I would question the fairness, get embittered and doubt God too. I guess I shouldn't judge him 'til I 've walked a mile in his shoes. Or rolled a mile in his little wagon. Or until the battery runs down. Why hasn't he spent more of his genious(?) developing longer lasting rehchargeable batteries instead of theoretical flim flam? I bet the thought has never crossed his mind. Duhhhhhh.

boys
8:58 AM on September 2, 2010

Mr. Hawking, who do you think invented gravity, and physics, and chemistry, and biology, and so on...
Are you really so all-knowing...?

Free_man
8:57 AM on September 2, 2010

Do you people really think what you post is going to change someone on the other sides view point?

I know, lets ask what Hawkings thinks about abortion and then have a discussion that will settle that issue once and for all

anonymous
8:57 AM on September 2, 2010

this is a load of $#*^^*$#&^ lol

A LOT OF PEOPLE under estimate God = Jesus Christ.

A LOT OF PEOPLE wants to HAVE PROOF that JC exist, well they won't get any proof because JC is a mystery GOD. If JC is not mysterious, then He wouldn't be call God.

Amen ??

Amen folks lol


have a niiceeeeeee dayyyyyyyyyyy

and especially to Stephen Hawkin lol

anonymous
8:55 AM on September 2, 2010

Ironic that the greatest threat to life on earth is the human predilection for adherence to primitive superstitions. Sad that at this point in our history we're still debating the existence of a "God", let alone the relevance of the concept. I sincerely hope that we, as a species, are able to survive the violence inherent in these delusions long enough to collectively evolve to a more rational state.

Verta
8:55 AM on September 2, 2010

@1140....it comes with a manual? The way i see it there are plenty of "manuals" written by many different people. Each one writing to suit their needs of control over the weak and desperate....and soon to be broke. Each one still fighting to prove his manual is right. The word "manual" includes the word "man", not God. If it were a "Godual"....maybe. So, just shut up and kneel and put your check in the basket.

Free_man
8:54 AM on September 2, 2010

11:41
I don't disagree with what you say about people straying out of their area of expertise usually not being worth listening to but be careful of who you choose as examples, David Suzuki was a biology professor with a special focus on genetics long before he was a broadcaster, his environmental advocacy partly arose from his research and became famous only after the fact, he is one of the few celebrity commentators who is worth listening to at least in regard to biology, ecology etc. His political analyses are not his strongest points however.

anonymous
8:50 AM on September 2, 2010

People who have the direct experience of God - not such an uncommon experience -- may agree that God is the universe experiencing itself. This means that the Big Bang and gravity and so on can be seen as the objective side of the universe which also has the subjective side which is God.

8:50 AM on September 2, 2010

knowsit
8:49 AM on September 2, 2010

RedBeardthePirate, maybe his life's work is about proving there IS a God so that he might be comforted by the notion that his situation will improve in the after-life. You don't know his motivation. Regardless, he is just stating logical deductions based on observations obtained through the scientific method.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going,"

Notice he states 'not necessary'. He doesn't say can't be...as in his observations etc. point to one conclusion but others are possible. Blame the media for misrepresenting his statements to get attention and sell copies, not S.H.

ohh, and 11:37am, I would rather live my life to the fullest, with the mindset that everyday is important rather than waste my life expecting that everything will get better once I'm dead.

PrimeNumbers
8:47 AM on September 2, 2010

People who use "Pascal's Wager" should be careful and remember the other name for it is "avoiding the wrong hell problem." It has also been said that any rational creator God would prefer an honest atheist to a religious gambler who chose his belief to try to win a bet out of sheer self-interest.

Criança Gorda
8:46 AM on September 2, 2010

Funny, Hawking has taken 15 years to answer the creationist question, "If something has a beginning, it has to have a cause. So what caused the Big Bang." So his answer, although 15 years late is interesting.

As to what created gravity, Hawking would probably answer, that gravity had no beginning and therefore always was.

In either case, he has not disproven the existence of God. The fact of the existence of the law of gravity does not in anyway disprove the existence of God.

If there is nothing and if the nothing has no mass, then does the law of gravity apply to nothing that has no mass, or does gravity require something to have mass.

Isn't Newton's Law of Gravity stated as "Every OBJECT"? An object is something, so how is "nothing" affected by the law of gravity such that "nothing" now becomes "something"?

Kilroy was here
8:46 AM on September 2, 2010

This comment is hidden because you have chosen to ignore Kilroy was here. Show DetailsHide Details

Hawkings' life as pathetic as it is may have been a gift from God. What if God created the entire universe and all of the possibilities, and made it possible for this man to live out a shell of a life in a wheelchair ... just to give him time to think about stuff?

This is a possibility as well. now the rub would be ... What if on some other planet ... across the universe ... in a wheelchair ... is some other "tread" who is thinking .... "there must be a God, who created the universe, because there are other planetary masses orbiting other stars out there ... " Now that would be ironic., insightful & newsworthy

anonymous
8:44 AM on September 2, 2010

I'll chime in with 11:24 a.m., and I'm an atheist. I see all religion as an attempt to explain what could not be known until humans developed enough to see the truth, and it's mostly beautifully poetic, but positing DNA for the building blocks of life isn't much different than saying all living things were created of the dust of the earth. DNA is literally the dust of the earth. Maybe there is an intelligent being of some kind, but if it's true it's completely unknowable to such as we puny humans. So, unknowable god or eternally existing gravity. Different ways to say the same thing.

anonymous
8:41 AM on September 2, 2010

People that excel in one field are frequently dysfunctional in others. Part of the price of concentrating on one aspect of their lives. I would no more take advice on religion from Hawking than I would take marriage counseling from Tiger Woods. Or environmental advice from celebrities like David Suzuki or other tv stars.

anonymous
8:40 AM on September 2, 2010

How many times do you have to shake in a box thousands of broken radio pieces before it becomes a working radio again? Only a fool would think that it would be a workable radio again. So, like Mr. Hawking who has all these degrees showing that he is very intelligent, does not make a person wise!Majority of mankind does not like being told what he has to do, so , that is why mankind is failing miserably on all fronts!The Creator has laid out all the things we have to do to live and be happy on this earth he created. But , soon the ones refusing to accept that God is our divine leader who has a purpose for this earth and soon will be done the ones ruining the earth will be brought to ruin!And no, the earth will stand, along with the the ones that practice and do Jehovah's will by the bible instructions will inherit the earth. What a shame that so many cannot accept divine rulership and even with a manual to show how to do it!

Score: -1 Name withheld
Kilroy was here
8:40 AM on September 2, 2010

@ anonymous - 11:20 AM on September 2, 2010:

When you say,

even if there where a god there idea that we would have the brain power to contemplate it, led alone be in a position to dictate its wishes is just ludicris...

"god" is a scam aimed at the weak, lonely, desperate or just plain ignorant.

did you actually mean "if there were a God" ..., and possibly "ludicrous"?

Spelling, grammer, education may be a scam too; you'd better be careful.

Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/enterta...#ixzz0yOKH4g9W