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Best Hose For Fire Attack!?

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  • #16
    we use ponn supreme 1 3/4" and 2.5"

    nozzles are the akron 1441 (15/16") and 1442 (1.25"), no pistol grips
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by SoloBlitz View Post
      1 3/4" is good, 2", I don't know- we don't use it... rubber sucks, jacketed is better.. Buy cheap, get alot..
      Consider rubber covered for trash/car fire lines where my be dragging on concrete. Certainly for LDH.

      DON'T buy cheap. You get what you pay for. You want hose the mfg believes in so strongly that they give it a 1 year warranty. Or maybe pay just a little more and get decent quality hose.

      ATI has 10yr warranty on all their hose. Only mfg to do so.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by neiowa View Post
        Consider rubber covered for trash/car fire lines where my be dragging on concrete. Certainly for LDH.

        DON'T buy cheap. You get what you pay for. You want hose the mfg believes in so strongly that they give it a 1 year warranty. Or maybe pay just a little more and get decent quality hose.

        ATI has 10yr warranty on all their hose. Only mfg to do so.
        Neiowa is right ( and he's thinking "oh my God, Gonz agrees with me for once... hell has frozen over!" )

        Remember... the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price.
        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by neiowa View Post

          ATI has 10yr warranty on all their hose. Only mfg to do so.
          Yes, but is it any good one Day 1? Tapered couplings? Kink resistance? Roll and fold decent? And how good is a 10 year warranty on fire hose? Must you prove it's "normal wear and tear? I have a pile of ATI awaiting testing for purchase next week. We'll see. I am hopeful, this wasn't a slam, but I like products that start off right, warrantied crap isn't of much value.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
            Yes, but is it any good one Day 1? Tapered couplings? Kink resistance? Roll and fold decent? And how good is a 10 year warranty on fire hose? Must you prove it's "normal wear and tear? I have a pile of ATI awaiting testing for purchase next week. We'll see. I am hopeful, this wasn't a slam, but I like products that start off right, warrantied crap isn't of much value.
            That scene in Tommy Boy comes to mind after reading this...
            Career Firefighter
            Volunteer Captain

            -Professional in Either Role-

            Originally posted by Rescue101
            I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by neiowa View Post
              ATI has 10yr warranty on all their hose. Only mfg to do so.
              Not so. Key also gives 10 years on all their municipal fire hose.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by GTRider245 View Post
                That scene in Tommy Boy comes to mind after reading this...
                "Where is the warranty? There is no warranty on the box, it has to be on the box."

                LOL
                Jason Knecht
                Firefighter/EMT
                Township Fire Dept., Inc.
                Eau Claire, WI

                IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
                http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
                EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Here is some food for thought... I recently called one of my contacts with one of the largest nozzle manufacturers in the business and asked him what his honest, unbiased opinion on attack hose is since he has nothing to gain by it...
                  He told me that Ponn Conquest makes good hose and they have one of the lowest fricition losses in the market...And why is this??? I would have never thought it, but the reason is... If you read the NFPA standard on fire service hose, (this is definitely not verbatum), but 1.75" can be manufactured in a way that when it is charged, it must measure less than 2". Apparently, Ponn Conquest makes theirs to the limit so that it is not 2", but is as large as it possibly can be and still be counted as 1.75". This was news to me...

                  I tell you, Niedner also makes great hose as well. It is a Canadian made hose and is pretty impressive.

                  I would stay away from that Branham hose, it is China made, and cheap cheap cheap. If that is what your department is into, than Branham hose is for you, but good luck with service and warranty, etc.

                  Be safe guys and God Bless.
                  EW
                  Stay low brother!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    We tested four brands of hose yesterday for friction loss and kinking. Our FL test methods leave a slight accuracy glitch in that we could not test the FL of the coupling nightmare we needed to attach the pitot tube to the end of the hose, but each length was tested at the same pressure and flow from the same discharge allowing us to compare them to each other. As we only had one length of each of two of the brands we were forced to only test each at 50 ft. for consistency. I'd have liked to had 200 ft. of each to really smooth out the FL but for this test it was close enough for comparison.

                    Since we were using our back-up engine we did not have the ability to flow the 15/16" tip and were forced to use the 3/4" pitot tip so the kink test was done at 50 psi NP for a flow of 118 gpm. The FL tests were done at 120 psi for a flow of 180 gpm.

                    In the kink test Ponn Supreme was by far the best with it being able to be reduced to a 24" loop before kinking at 50 psi nozzle pressure. One brand kept kinking at the 72" loop size! The other two were 36" and 48".

                    Regrettably, I don't have my notes or the chart here at home so I can't recall which had the best FL or where the other fell, maybe tomorrow when I swing back in. I do know given the quality of the past Ponn Supreme we've had, and the movement for us to go to all SB's I think it will end up being our selection. I know it was second best in the FL category. Our displeasure with our Ponn Conquest and time constraints made it so that we did not test it as well.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Thanks to all that replied we went with Angus Ultima Lite and 1 Akron 1441 with stacked smoothbore,and 1 Elkhart Chief combo nozzle we ending up purchasing 1,000 feet of attack hose lol we like to have spare on the truck and on the rack in the house
                      Last edited by CVFD9LT; 08-23-2009, 12:07 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I hope that the selections you've made work out well. Those are both very good nozzles.

                        Did you have testing parameters set for the evaluation? Did you have a physical evaluation and what wa the # for each test? Was the selection of hose 1.75" or 2"?
                        Originally Posted by madden01
                        "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Here's what we had on the FL testing of the 1.75" hose. As I posted earlier, the test method was flawed in accuracy of the numbers due to the pitot tube set-p vs. a hand held pitot, but the numbers should be consistent as all were done exactly the same. In view of this I'm not posting the actual recorded loss but merely the order in which they performed best to worst:

                          1. Mercedes Aquaflow Plus (tied for 2nd in kink test)
                          2. Ponn Supreme (5 psi more than Best) (best in kink test-by far!)
                          3. ATI Jafline (10 psi more than Best) (worst in kink test)
                          4. Key Lite (15 psi more than Best) (tied for 2nd in kink test)

                          Also as I noted we did not test our Ponn Conquest due to a time issue.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            yeah we let the guys that complained about the 2" test the new stuff and they said that there wasnt much difference between the 1.75 and 2 (as i tried to tell them) but they are the ones who decided on the angus ultima lite i chose the nozzles as i got to keep 1 of our preconnects a 2" with the akron stacked smoothbore also for MY CREW

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                            • #29
                              2" with a 15/16 smoothbore is the way to go.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Best Fire Hose

                                OK, since I have, in the past, worked for National Hose, Snap-Tite Ponn and Angus Imperial, I can help out here.

                                And, since I am in no way affiliated with any hose manufacturer, I can be un-biased.

                                Jacketed vs Rubber;

                                Rubber (nitrile) hose is actually a single jacketed construction, similar to rack hose. Rubber is melted through the jacket weave to form the inner and outer tubes. It has lower burst pressures than DJ (@1000 psi), but typically has higher resistance to heat. Temps of over 1,000 degrees can be withstood. Has issues with cracking with age and exposure to UV and ozone. Hard to hold onto when wet.

                                Jacketed Hoses for attack are required to be double jacketed per NFPA. Melt temperatures of the yarns are about 350 degrees F. Burst pressures can exceed 2000 psi. Nylon and Polyester are the most common, cotton is still available if special ordered, but has mold and mildew issues, and must be dried after use. Nylon vs Polyester comes in various grades, Nylon specified as Cordura is the high end (expensive) product, great stretch that allows great kink resistance and abrasion resistance, but Nylon must be coated. Polyester is a cheaper synthetic that, over the years, has improved in quality. Its hard to determine if its cheap or good yard, but specifying a ring spun product is the best. Can be ordered un-coated (white).

                                Linings are required for all jacketed construction. They are, EPDM, Nitrile, SBR and Thermoplastic. On standard rubber lined, just take my word for it and get EPDM, it is stroger lb for lb, doesnt crack with age, and doesn't delaminate from the jackets. On Thermplastic, good luck partner. They are good when you need lighter weight, but they almost always delaminate from the jacket with time. The only exception here is Ponn Conquest. which is through-the-weave construction. Conquest has the smoothest liner, and the 1.75 is over-sized to about 1.9 inches. Conquest's draw back is it doesnt like to fold or lay flat, it wants to spring out straight when not charged. Larger sizes are progressively worse. Nitrile liner is famous as Hi-Combat. It is essentially a rubber hose surrounded by a jacketed hose. It has good kink resistance, but within time the liner will crack with age and repeated folding.

                                The best hoses with the highest quality? They arent made anymore. Since the US FD's went to low bid, thats what they make now. The high end products just weren't specified, and havent been for years. US manufacturers have to now compete with China and other importers, so they take as much cost out as they can. Its common for the manufacturers to buy cheap yarn, say from a bankrupt bra manufacturer, and twist, or ply, the yarns in with better grades to lessen the cost.

                                About warranties. They are generally not worth the paper they are written on. They are all, every one, written to protect the manufacturer. You'll never see an "unconditional" warranty, but you'll see loads of "Limited" warranties. Just because it has a 10 year warranty doesnt mean it will last that long. I promise it won't. The warranty is specifically worded to protect against "manufacturing defects". In other works, you have to prove they made it wrong. Good luck.

                                A good rule of thumb, jacketed hoses are cheaper per foot in sizes 3" or less. Above 3", rubber covered is cheaper per foot.

                                Also, NFPA allows "nominal" lengths. I can guarantee that if you dont require them to be a specific length, they'll be "nominal" on the short side. Go out and measure your 50' hoses. I bet you wont find one over 47" in your station. Guess what, thats a 6% shortage that you paid for.

                                My opinion is this;

                                Buy a double jacketed Nylon hose from a quality maufacturer that is not consistantly low bid. Spec it to be Nylon 6/6 grade, EPDM lined, coated for abrasion, Tapered bowl aluminum coupling made in the US, manufactured and tested per NFPA 1961(current standard).Must be 50' dead lenghth, coupling to coupling.

                                If you need light weight for something like dedicated high-rise, substitute "Desmopan or Thermoplastic" in place of the "EPDM".

                                Personally, I would look at North American Fire Hose. Its a small, privately held company that builds quality, but they will never be low bid.

                                Remember, low bid is for toilet paper and trash cans. My life is worth more.

                                JT

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