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Random thoughts out...Rules of Engagement in?

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  • #16
    Thanks Dal. Hopefully we'll never need to break that bad boy out
    Tom

    Never Forget 9-11-2001

    Stay safe out there!

    IACOJ Member

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    • #17
      Good stuff.

      FTM-PTB

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      • #18
        why not just keep running Tom's work over and over?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by BackstepFF View Post
          For what it's worth, I'll throw a couple of names out there just to get the ball rolling -- Vincent Dunn and John Norman. Now the disclaimer: I have no idea about their personal situations, or if it's something they would be interested in doing.
          I have subscribed to FE for over 20 years and IMO the chief from the desert is at the bottom of the list of fire chief's I want to hear from; seems to me he is the polar opposite of Tom Brennan. I think FFFRED summed it up pretty well: We all knew that Tom would be dearly missed, but what a sad state of affairs.
          It will be hard to fill Tom Brennan's shoes.

          Chief John Norman recently retired from the FDNY, Chief Vinny Dunn has been out for a few years.

          I would like to see a column done on a rotating basis between Dunn, Norman, Billy Goldfeder and yes, even Bruno (while I don't agree with everything he's done, he has been an innovator). I saw a video clip of "Bruno and Brennan unplugged"... they got along and while they had different views on acheiving it, the goal was always the same... everyone goes home... and that's what it's all about.
          Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-02-2007, 01:17 PM. Reason: spelling error correction
          ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
          Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CaptainGonzo View Post
            It will be hard to fill Tom Brennan's shoes.

            Chief John Norman recently retired from the FDNY, Chief Vinny Dunn has been out for a few years.

            I would like to see a column done on a rotating basis between Dunn, Norman, Billy Goldfeder and yes, even Bruno (while I don't aree with everything he's done, he has been an innovator). I saw a video clip of "Bruno and Brennan unplugged"... they got along and while they had different viewson acheiving it, the goal was always the same... everyone goes home... and that's what it's all about.
            My issue is that I don't subscribe to that guys methods or ideas and therefore I'm not sure I want to continue to subscribe to a magazine that gives that dope any more "air-time" than he already gets from himself.

            Perhaps I'm in the minority, however I'll bet there is a signifigant portion of their readership they just alienated.

            And also let me say, the man doesn't have to be from my dept. I'm sure there are some well spoken, intelligent and expereinced men from a number of departments out there. I have to say that AB isn't even on my long list of guys I would like to hear from.

            Personally I plan on writing a letter, not so that it is printed but to tell them I'm far from happy with their choice. I hope others who feel the same will do so as well.

            FTM-PTB

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            • #21
              Fred- Who would you like to learn from? Like you said I am sure there are guys from other busy areas that have a wealth of knowledge to share.


              37Truck- I agree, I think it would be nice to see all of Brennan's articles rerun. There are a lot of firefighters out there that are just getting into this profession that didn't get to read his stuff. And while it is sad that he is gone, the buildings that he warned us about and construction features are still very much around and a threat to us.
              Real men wear kilts. www.forourfallen.org

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              • #22
                I could be mistaken but I always assumed FE was of an East coast mentality. I agreee FE has gone down hill and sometimes I would just read Brennans article and that was it. I think Ill just renew my subsription to WNYF. No offense to anyone on the forums here, but a few years ago Brennan would come into the Tactics forum here and it was really great. The quality and depth of discussions about real-world topics being discussed here has greatly diminished from then until now.

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                • #23
                  "Everyone goes home."

                  That's not good enough. That can be fulfilled by going defensive every time. That can be fulfilled by pure dumb luck. It's an empty feel good phrase. I hear it used most often after the discussion of something that went wrong, even if everything else went right. It's a band-aid.

                  We do our job right and to the best of our ability and hopefully everyone goes home.

                  I'm sure the intent of that statement isn't bad. I'm sure it assumes a decent fire attack and competence from the firefighters, but it's a favorite of people who go defensive at the dro pof a hat or open the nozzle immediately on entering, don't ventilate, don't work, etcetera. It isn't enough that everyone goes home. They should be able to go home proud.

                  There's the flip side. If I do one thing wrong, it bugs me, even if it's insignificant. One little screw up eats at me. I have to talk it out and go over my skills repeatedly when I gaffe. It can ruin my shift if I don't get a handle on it. Mistakes are bad, and we should pay attention to our weaknesses, but we shouldn't obsess over them any more than we should ignore them.
                  Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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                  • #24
                    EXCELLENT post Johnny46!
                    RK
                    cell #901-494-9437

                    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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                    • #25
                      I don't think I will stop reading the magazine because of the last page, but I won't be opening the magazine backwards anymore, thats for sure.

                      I couldnt agree more with johnny, the whole concept of the safety generation firefighter is eating away at me. If you dont go home dirty, tired and knowing you put forth everything you had, whats the point of bothering? Anyone can spray water in the windows, we need to get in it to win it.

                      I did hope to see someone like Salka, Norman, Tracy, Dunn, McGrail, Gustin etc.

                      Do we need to build a wall to keep those funky westerners out???
                      Last edited by MG3610; 02-03-2007, 07:37 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Where did Bruno come out of?

                        When ever we get an relief officer working with us for the day, this is usually the question that is asked. What fire company was he promoted off of? Where did he spend his time as a fireman? We ask this to determine what kind of officer he is and how far to trust his judgements. If he spent his carreer ducking in slow houses, then we take that into consideration - just as we would if he had spent his time in the ghetto fighting fire. It tells you how many fires he's had, how many different scenes he's been presented with, how ell he knows his job. How much fire time does this guy have? Phoenix seems to be a large suburb to me - basicly a high end, older population, white suburb. What kind of fire duty was he doing as a fireman? How long in the field before he was promoted? What companies was he on as a fireman? Was he always on the busiest in the worst neighborhoods? Or did he stay in a slower spot - showing no desire to get into the fires? In other words....

                        Where did this Bruno come from?
                        Last edited by ChicagoFF; 02-05-2007, 10:32 AM.
                        I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ChicagoFF View Post
                          Where did Bruno come out of?

                          When ever we get an relief officer working with us for the day, this is usually the question that is asked. What fire company was he promoted off of? Where did he spend his time as a fireman? We ask this to determine what kind of officer he is and how far to trust his judgements. If he spent his carreer ducking in slow houses, then we take that into consideration - just as we would if he had spent his time in the ghetto fighting fire. It tells you how many fires he's had, how many different scenes he's been presented with, how ell he knows his job. How much fire time does this guy have? Phoenix seems to be a large suburb to me - basicly a high end, older population, white suburb. What kind of fire duty was he doing as a fireman? How long in the field before he was promoted? What companies was he on as a fireman? Was he always on the busiest in the worst neighborhoods? Or did he stay in a slower spot - showing no desire to get into the fires? In other words....

                          Where did this Bruno come from?
                          Same here Chicago, And when a guy attains the rank level of a guy like
                          Bruno (Deputy or COD) I know a few guys who often out of curriocity ask not only where they worked as a fireman or a lt. but also how long. If all they did was 3 1/2 years in a busy house before making Lt., that also says alot about ones judgement. If a guy did everthing possible to sail up through the ranks in a short a time as possible and get out of the firehouse by taking adminstrative assingments along the way and never getting a spot as a boss that too says volumes. Although I've never been able to get one Phoenix guy to tell us where he was a fireman or company officer and what kind of work they do in those companies in the PFD...it should be pretty obvious to most kind of work and time he had when he was a fireman by just reading his schtick.

                          FTM-PTB

                          PS- I think based on this guys views he should re-title his column.."Rules of "Avoiding" Engagement"
                          Last edited by FFFRED; 02-05-2007, 11:17 AM.

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                          • #28
                            You've probably never met a Phoenix FF who could answer your questions Fred if they wanted to.

                            Brunacini started in 1958, and was a Battalion Chief by the mid-1960s. Became Chief in '78.

                            The current Chief started four years after Brunacini became Fire Chief.

                            I guess personally I'm always a little leery of FDs that have a sequence of short-timers as well as those who have one Chief for generations.

                            I know there's exceptional Chiefs out there, and I know there's departments that have well-oiled systems that bring up Chiefs to serve for a couple years and maintain the organization's long term objectives in a Board of Commissioners or some such sort.

                            But for Average FD out there, it just seems 5 years is too short for Fire Chief to make a personal impact on an organization, but when you get to 20+ years they've made such an impact often a department has a hard time after they leave since a generation of firefighters grew up knowing nothing else.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dalmatian190 View Post
                              You've probably never met a Phoenix FF who could answer your questions Fred if they wanted to.

                              Brunacini started in 1958, and was a Battalion Chief by the mid-1960s. Became Chief in '78.

                              The current Chief started four years after Brunacini became Fire Chief.

                              I guess personally I'm always a little leery of FDs that have a sequence of short-timers as well as those who have one Chief for generations.

                              I know there's exceptional Chiefs out there, and I know there's departments that have well-oiled systems that bring up Chiefs to serve for a couple years and maintain the organization's long term objectives in a Board of Commissioners or some such sort.

                              But for Average FD out there, it just seems 5 years is too short for Fire Chief to make a personal impact on an organization, but when you get to 20+ years they've made such an impact often a department has a hard time after they leave since a generation of firefighters grew up knowing nothing else.

                              Dal I see your point. Although I would think someone would know this history as for example I know where Chief Dunn served, I know where Chief Pete Hayden served, Tom Brennan, Chief Ganci...etc. Some of them I've met, some I haven't...but I never asked them, it was open knowledge throughout the job where high ranking chiefs had worked. Been that way since day one around here (and apparently other places such as Chicago) for a long time as Chiefs such as Smokey Joe, McElligot, Croker, Kenlon and so on also were very open and proud about where they served.

                              When a man in his position masks his expereince one really has to wonder what he really did...or didn't do with the time he spent on the bottom supposedly learning this job.

                              FTM-PTB

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Guys, it is a sad day when the oldest and most distinguished (re.: serious) trade journal in the whole business gives Brunacini a monthly pulpit. I truly believe he has done more to destroy the fire service than any city manager or self-interested fire chief ever could alone- Bruno has formalized a doctrine that puts the fire fighter last in the line of priorities. Spineless fire chiefs have taken his views to heart as just another method to sell their departments on a "breadth of service, rather than a depth of service," as Bill Manning once wrote. The victim, invariable, has been the fire fighter and the citizen not brazen enough or having too much pride to ask for special treatment. Read the customer service book, educate yourself. If you don't know what Bruno would actually have you do (grandma calls for "I've fallen and I can't get up" and they stay and wash her hair and do TWO loads of laundry) then you can't be clear on how demeaning and mixed up his theories are.
                                Last edited by firehat87; 02-05-2007, 04:45 PM.
                                In time

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