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  • Scenario Help

    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first?

  • #2
    Originally posted by BKDRAFT View Post
    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first?

    Not enough info:

    What are their assigned positons according to your dept procedures?
    Where should they roughly be operating?
    What are their assinged duties other than search(are they to search for the fire, people or both)?
    Who is covering other issues, floor above, VES..etc.?
    Is the Engine in place?
    Are we the first two to arrive or are we a 2nd due or later arriving Ladder Co.?

    FTM-PTB

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
      Not enough info:

      What are their assigned positons according to your dept procedures?
      Where should they roughly be operating?
      What are their assinged duties other than search(are they to search for the fire, people or both)?
      Who is covering other issues, floor above, VES..etc.?
      Is the Engine in place?
      Are we the first two to arrive or are we a 2nd due or later arriving Ladder Co.?

      FTM-PTB

      Searching for both fire and people in a two story structure. They are required to search the house. There is another company on scene taking care of other operations.

      (This is an oral board question that I need help on)

      Thanks for any help you could provide me with.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BKDRAFT View Post
        Searching for both fire and people in a two story structure. They are required to search the house. There is another company on scene taking care of other operations.

        (This is an oral board question that I need help on)

        Thanks for any help you could provide me with.
        • -Grab the tools we are assigned for that tour and force entry and begin search for the fire.
        • -Ensure that the fire isn't on a lower floor and the smoke just happens to be venting from above.
        • -Once we find the fire begin search for life from there and confine the fire if possible. Working towards a means of egress.
        • -If the fire is on the 1st floor search there until a primary is complete and then continue to the 2nd floor.
        • -Check for extension along the way and report any to the Chief.


        Thats the cliff notes version.

        FTM-PTB

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks a lot Firefighter Fred.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally Posted by BKDRAFT

            Originally Posted by BKDRAFT
            Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



            I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first? You can gain quite a bit of info from people on scene. Sometime they will tell you my son,daughter,husband ect. is upstairs or is in his room on the first floor. Now I will take this scenario by what my Dept.would do. That is with 18 Firefighters on scene within 4 to six minutes.

            By others assigned to Ops,I take that to mean advancing lines and attacking the fire. Fire attack and search can be done simultaneously if man power permits. If I were assingned to this search my first priority would be to make a rapid assesment of the building, making a mental note of means of egress,doors,windows,type of construction,ect. Time of day is also very important.(middle of the night,middle of the day,cars in the driveway) Obviously if it is in the wee hours of the morning there is more of a chance of victims than if it were 2 in the afternoon. If there were persons on scene who gave information that there was a victim or victims on the second floor,thats where I would concentrate my resources. If not I would start on the first floor.I would do a right hand search and by feel ,I would make a mental note of the room I was in. Are we in a bedroom? If so be sure and sweep under beds and in closets. Is the bed made or unmade? If it is unmade and its the middle of the night I would be thinking someone was in here and fled to another part of the house. I would follow all the walls to the right until I came back to the enterance that I had started at. As Fred had told you you should be in contact with command and tell them your primary search of the first floor is complete. Tell commmand either first floor all clear or whatever the conditions may be that you find. Hopefully during this time another team has done a primary on the upper floors. If not always notify that you will be moving in behind the attack team to do a primary of the second floor. By now there should have been some word as to the status of the fire, hopefully knocked down or under control. When making it up to floor two you would make the same type of search as you did on the first. Hopefully this would already have been done. This whole scenario can change depending on what is encountered on the first floor. For instance if the first floor is all clear,meaning no evidence of smoke of fire by no means would i search it before the upper floors.

            Comment


            • #7
              I would do a right hand search
              Just curious, but why start with a right hand search? Wouldn't the layout of the building have a play in which way you would start your search?
              "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

              Comment


              • #8
                Why do a right hand search?

                I was just trying to give this gentlemen a bit more insight into the things one must think about when conducting a search. So ,so many variables play into any search we do. The thought I was attemtping to convey to him was to have a pattern to search. I don't care if you do a right hand search,or a left hand search. Or simply go to the area that you are told there is a victim. Again it was a hypothetical situation and a general answer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ok. No problem with that. Just thought right hand was maybe a protocol for your department and was curious as to why.
                  "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Preconnect View Post
                    Originally Posted by BKDRAFT
                    Arrive on scene of a two story structure with smoke showing from the upper floors. You and another FF are assigned to search. Take me through the steps and or what you would be thinking.



                    I have a question about search. If the fire is on the first floor but smoke is showing from the second, which floor do you check first? You can gain quite a bit of info from people on scene. Sometime they will tell you my son,daughter,husband ect. is upstairs or is in his room on the first floor. Now I will take this scenario by what my Dept.would do. That is with 18 Firefighters on scene within 4 to six minutes.

                    By others assigned to Ops,I take that to mean advancing lines and attacking the fire. Fire attack and search can be done simultaneously if man power permits. If I were assingned to this search my first priority would be to make a rapid assesment of the building, making a mental note of means of egress,doors,windows,type of construction,ect. Time of day is also very important.(middle of the night,middle of the day,cars in the driveway) Obviously if it is in the wee hours of the morning there is more of a chance of victims than if it were 2 in the afternoon. If there were persons on scene who gave information that there was a victim or victims on the second floor,thats where I would concentrate my resources. If not I would start on the first floor.I would do a right hand search and by feel ,I would make a mental note of the room I was in. Are we in a bedroom? If so be sure and sweep under beds and in closets. Is the bed made or unmade? If it is unmade and its the middle of the night I would be thinking someone was in here and fled to another part of the house. I would follow all the walls to the right until I came back to the enterance that I had started at. As Fred had told you you should be in contact with command and tell them your primary search of the first floor is complete. Tell commmand either first floor all clear or whatever the conditions may be that you find. Hopefully during this time another team has done a primary on the upper floors. If not always notify that you will be moving in behind the attack team to do a primary of the second floor. By now there should have been some word as to the status of the fire, hopefully knocked down or under control. When making it up to floor two you would make the same type of search as you did on the first. Hopefully this would already have been done. This whole scenario can change depending on what is encountered on the first floor. For instance if the first floor is all clear,meaning no evidence of smoke of fire by no means would i search it before the upper floors.
                    Why do a Right hand search when you don't even know where the fire is? Wouldn't it be more prudent to search for the fire, find it, report its locations to the Engine, confine it if possible and then begin your search for life working back from there towards a means of egress using a patern to ensure efficiency?

                    FTM-PTB

                    Note: I just saw your reply...my bad. Note to self, read entire thread.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                      Wouldn't it be more prudent to search for the fire, find it, report its locations to the Engine, confine it if possible and then begin your search for life working back from there towards a means of egress using a patern to ensure efficiency?
                      Come on now FFFRED you know that most dept's do not send the ladder crew in to find the fire before the line is stretched. I don't disagree that this can lead to stretches being placed improperly, delaying further still getting water on the fire. But many of us are forced by poor staffing to get a line in place first before going above the fire. This being the case because starting the search before the line may end up with a long delay in the line being stretched and the searchers getting to far in or cut off. That being said, we also work in much smaller structures for the most part and the stretch is generally much easier to get right. For the most part, our first due officer makes the intial interior assessment (unprotected) and orders where the line is to be stretched. Again, I like the FDNY model much better but sadly it is not always a reality for many smaller depts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                        Come on now FFFRED you know that most dept's do not send the ladder crew in to find the fire before the line is stretched. I don't disagree that this can lead to stretches being placed improperly, delaying further still getting water on the fire. But many of us are forced by poor staffing to get a line in place first before going above the fire. This being the case because starting the search before the line may end up with a long delay in the line being stretched and the searchers getting to far in or cut off. That being said, we also work in much smaller structures for the most part and the stretch is generally much easier to get right. For the most part, our first due officer makes the intial interior assessment (unprotected) and orders where the line is to be stretched. Again, I like the FDNY model much better but sadly it is not always a reality for many smaller depts.
                        Since when did this senario deal with any of that? He was assigned to search that is all. As for the small structures, my experince in a former dept where lines were stretched improperly before finding the fire was in one of the smallest 2 story houses one could imagine. There wasn't much too it.

                        As far as our "model"...When did Find-confine-Extinquish become the sole property of the FDNY, I thought that was universal. There are many smaller depts that practice this. The senario required 2 guys...that is the same amount of guys we essentially use, the Can Man and Officer. (the Irons is searching for life immediately)

                        Searching for the fire location then working away is proven in terms of efficency of operations and saving the most lives as those close to the fire will be the ones in the most danger...just the same the longer you search the farther the inside team gets from danger and is safer for them as well.

                        This is basic firefighting tactics, I disagree that anything I said precludes anyone outside the FDNY from performing the very same tasks.

                        FTM-PTB

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          the Can Man and Officer. (the Irons is searching for life immediately)
                          Question here. Is that normal that you would split the 3 up? I had thought they would work as a team, with the can and irons searching with the officer "overseeing/monitoring conditions".
                          "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                            Question here. Is that normal that you would split the 3 up? I had thought they would work as a team, with the can and irons searching with the officer "overseeing/monitoring conditions".
                            Depends on many factors but they are all working in the same general area floor(in a PD) or appartment (in a MD).

                            In some companies in some situations (like Large luxury appartments on Park Ave for example) the officer will monitior the situation.

                            However according to procedures. The can and the officer search for the fire and then begin there search for life there meanwhile the Irons man immediately begins a search for life.

                            I can't speak for the entire job, but that is how it is usally done around my neighborhood.

                            FTM-PTB

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks.....
                              "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                              Comment

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