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  • Aerial design and fireground applications.

    Any thoughts on the limitations posed by using Ladder apparatus with pre-piped waterways?



    This is the second photo I have found on FH.com and I have posted regarding this subject.

    I'm not questioning the brothers and their efforts at this fire as I am sure they did the best they could with the appratus given to them.

    I just thought this photo offered some opportunity for discussion on real world fireground applications of aerial appratus and how the design affects the operations and safety of members and civilians alike.

    Imagine how this operation would have been if those civilians passed out and the brother on the tip had to enter and get these fine citizens on the aerial as shown here? How would that compare to a standard non piped aerial or TL bucket?

    How does this design affect VES operations?

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 01-17-2007, 11:23 PM.

  • #2
    The picture shows a telesquirt boom being used to attempt a rescue. Hopefully it was a last ditch emergency and not a telesquirt being used for a primary truck function if another task capable aerial was there. Pertaining to (true) aerials with waterways; it seems if the waterway is a desired option, having it pinned to the 3rd section makes sense, so the tip can be placed at windows or rooflines easier. All of my aerial expierence comes from ladder towers and telesquirts (KME type) so I'm not the best judge.

    Looking at that particular photo, it appears the boom is fully bedded. Perhaps a portable ladder rescue would have been better suited???
    Last edited by MG3610; 01-17-2007, 11:19 PM.

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    • #3
      This is yet another good reason for ladders that can be operated in rescue mode or big water mode. I am assuming most newer aerials have this capability. I know our Pierce 105'does.
      But like FFred said, the brothers are probably just doing the best with what they have.

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      • #4
        Is that an aerial, or an elevated master stream with an escape ladder?

        I see where you're coming from with the pre-piped waterway, though. I think the pinnable waterway represents a better solution to the problem - close approach without sacrificing quick elevated stream operations.

        In smaller-town America I've observed that the truck company is frequently dispatched only on second and greater alarms primarily for surround-and-drown events. The ladder's presence in the station is usually justified by ISO benefits and the one or two "tall" buildings in town. (Don't even get me started on the reach issue - I've argued with civilians 'til I'm blue in the face that tall is not the only reason aerials are needed.)

        Is it a waste to have a million dollar truck parked in the house? Yes and no. When you're desperately undermanned, priority naturally goes to the engine companies that do rescues, medicals, and put out fires.

        VES duties typically go to engine companies with ground ladders who are not operating hose lines.
        ullrichk
        a.k.a.
        perfesser

        a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

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        • #5
          The ladder that I work on, a Pierce 105' HD, has a "pinable" waterway. We keep the nozzle pinned to the third fly for normal operations. We can pin the nozzle to the fourth fly for use as an elevated master stream.

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          • #6
            I noticed that as well Fred. I have a tower at my station so we don't quite have that same situation. I know that around here both Raleigh FD and Charlotte FD keep their waterways pinned back, if they are needed for water ops they move them back out.

            I feel like it is all about why you have the aerial, are you planning on using it for a possibly rescue or is it just there to make parking lots and parades?
            Real men wear kilts. www.forourfallen.org

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            • #7
              Put me down as another vote for a squirt thats barely extended. I run a 75' quint with a pinnable waterway thats kept off the tip for reasons just like this photo. Also it would be the same issue if you were catching a short roof, don't want to smash the pipe off the roof.

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              • #8
                aerials are for rescue NOT master streams

                I'm amazed at the amount of apparatus out there that are designed with prepiped waterways. If you spec it, they will build it. We operate with 2 105' Pierce "Quints" (strike 1) haha. Anyway, we pin our water way on the second fly so it is not in the way of the tip during rescue or removal. Unfortunately, there are a few other items that are in the way such as the control box if you should choose to put "tip controls" on the end, spot lights, speaker for communications etc. I think committees are forgetting that the aerial may be a last resort for removal or rescue but placing all the additional items near the tip prove to be cumbersome and get in the way when stepping on or off the tip of the aerial. Remember, we don't always have a straight, perpendicular shot to the roof or window...Stepping over the side of the stick is often the only means to get off or onto the aerial. Look at Boston, New York and many other larger cities...Their aerial's are strictly used for rescue and removals etc. without anything getting in the way of the firefighter stepping on, off, or through the aerial. This includes that "handy" (not) mount for an axe and or hook. My two cents in a quick minute...

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                • #9
                  My sister company has a 105' Pierce bucket and would definitely make the "rescue" easier. My company runs a 50' Teleboom and we could find ourselves exactly as pictured above. There are places in town where the 105 can't fit and the 50 does. The waterway nozzle tucks under and is well protected. (it's been tested - being put through a window accidentally). It's not our primary ladder and not intended to be, but it's an added option that is available. Another item of note, our waterway does not run under the ladder/boom, it runs along the sides of it so dropping down to a window or ledge will not damage it.

                  VES duties typically go to engine companies with ground ladders who are not operating hose lines
                  That's interesting. Here, VES is performed by truck companies.
                  "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                    Another item of note, our waterway does not run under the ladder/boom, it runs along the sides of it so dropping down to a window or ledge will not damage it.
                    Neat! Ive never seen that design.

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                    • #11
                      My 105’ pierce has a pre-piped waterway that we keep pinned until an elevated stream is needed; I can say that the rest of the city runs the same way, as well.
                      Our reasoning is that speed is always needed in a rescue, and no matter what you do with the waterway, it takes some time to supply it. This time will allow you do take the pin out to switch from rescue to water tower. I know it is a minimum of amount of time for us.
                      In my experience, every time we have thrown the stick for a rescue, or to get to a roof, the waterway has not been a major issue.
                      We are able to get away with ground ladders for the most part, though, in my first due. The buildings that we have that are taller are tall enough that the ladder extends far enough to not have to worry about the waterway.

                      The other issue I have with the pre-piped ladders is the cost. In these times of ’shrinking’ budgets, in which we are having firemen cut every year, why do we keep buying pre-piped trucks? I would rather have a five-man truck company, than I would a pre-piped aerial ladder.

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