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  • #16
    Originally posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    I didn't think this even needed to be spelled out. I thought it was a cardinal rule taught on the very first day of every academy!
    It even crosses over to the wildland side, Hotshots can (and are encouraged to) carry hose packs up the hill, but no engineslug worth the name ever lets the attack nozzle go until mop up (and then there are plenty of nozzle to go around). Bad enough to let another engine crew get the nozzle, but giving it up to a Hotshot is a special shame that takes years to live down.
    Last edited by NonSurfinCaFF; 12-26-2006, 12:21 AM.

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    • #17
      Great discussion, especially for those of us that work for departments that only ride with 3 man engines and 1 or 2 man truck companies.

      For those that wonder the second in crew either pulls another line or helps with truck work. The second in driver after helping establish a water supply normally assists the guy on the ladder with truck company tasks.
      Real men wear kilts. www.forourfallen.org

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by BKDRAFT View Post
        Can you please post what seat assignments are present in the FDNY and what there duties are?

        This will be brief, maily because it would take a book to explain every position.

        Engines:

        MPO (Motor Pump Operator, the Chauffer)
        Officer
        Nozzle
        Back-up
        Control (responsible for the stretch, assist MPO)
        Door (on 5 man engines)

        Trucks:
        LCC (Ladder Company Chauffer
        Officer
        Can
        Irons (foricble entry)
        Roof
        Outside Vent man

        Rescue, Squad and Marine Co.s also have positions. But I'll leave that up to one of the SOC guys to explain that.
        IACOJ Member

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ChicagoFF View Post
          I didn't think this even needed to be spelled out. I thought it was a cardinal rule taught on the very first day of every academy!
          Well, you know it, and I know it....but you read the forums, soooo.....think about it and ask me again.
          IACOJ Member

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          • #20
            Our combination department runs with seating positions for tools and assignments. Basically we did this to have better accountability and ensure that we didn't end up with 5 "Irons men" on the lawn.

            All first due seats are labelled with their tool assignments and function. The career personnel riding are assigned their seats at the beginning of each shift. Seats thereafter are numbered by "functional importance." If three are on the engine and three on the Tower an off duty or call firefighter will take the 4th tower seat, next is the 4 engine seat, etc.

            The only real difficulty is when firefighters are used in the box (ambo) and seats are empty. Also, running with a short crew and taking in alarms often requires personnel to assist in searching the alarm cause leaving their normal fire duty position (MPO, nozzleman, once in a while the Tower Operator).

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            • #21
              Originally posted by phyrngn View Post
              Now, do you provide position-specific training...hwoods alluded to that somewhat with his response. Do you actually have OVM Training, Control Training, etc.?
              Every Company officially drills once a tour. There are two tours in a 24 hour day so thus there are two drill periods in a 24 hour day.

              Every Sat or Sunday we also have MUD (Multi-Unit Drill) Where companies will go somewhere in the neighborhood and drill together on other more involved evolutions, such as suppling a TL or visiting a construction/demolition site, or a vacant in the neighborhood...etc.

              Every Monday and Tuesday the Ladder and Engine holds a roof rope drill and repacks the rope.

              Members are expected to know each position and their tools and duties. Should they be out of position at a job...everyone will know it, in the company and in the Battalion and quite possibly the Deputy Chief as well if you have really F*cked up. Needless to say that isn't something you want to happen as it makes your company standout and not in a good way.

              We drill often, at a box we ask among our selves what would I have done if this gas leak in Appartment 4F was instead a fire. The control man will always make an estimate...guys will always size up the building...where there fire escapes on the front or not? Are their Sissor stairs in this building?

              When we have a probie when he isn't doing something,(sheets, dishes, mopping..etc.) he is to be learning his job. We will have a drill on the standpipe, a drill on the roof rope...drill on Back-up, Drill on the Can position...etc.

              In the accademy each position is taught...however once out in the field...a truck probie will usually only get the can and occasionally the roof for quite sometime...untill he is very familiar with those positions and then he might get the Irons eventually and then some day the OVM.

              We drill on all positions and if you f*ck up you will never hear the end of it...so it would benefit one to drill and know their respective duties.

              I hope that helps answer your question.

              FTM-PTB

              Comment


              • #22
                Volunteer department here. What is taught in "academy" and what departments do tends to vary.

                We do more of a vehicle assignment than "seats". Yes, we can have an engine showing up and functioning as a Truck. In MY area, it works as we carry fairly similar equipment on all our vehicles. Every engine has ground ladders and we don't have anything over 3 stories. Guys are trained in all positions. Driver and officer in front, the 3-6 guys in back decide who's doing what and the senior guy in back settles "disputes". Takes about 10 seconds for that to happen. Officer most likely won't know who is doing what nor does he need to, he knows what that "position" will be doing.

                Our SOG's describing the postion can be found at PPBFD SOGs
                "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                • #23
                  Combination department:

                  The senior officer on the tour, either career or volunteer, will make the ride assignments before the beginning of the shift.

                  Tower ride assignments: 4 Man Truck Crew

                  Chauffer: Driver/Operator, controls utilities, and throws ground ladders. When operating as a 4 man truck crew, assists the hookman with horizontal and vertical ventilation.

                  OIC: Enters fire building with the barman. Performs a search of the fire floor. Equipment: TIC, radio, and Hydraram.

                  Barman: Forcible entry. Begins search and vents from the inside. Tools: Radio and the appropriate forcible entry tools.

                  Hookman: Throws ground ladders, and when necessary, proceeds to the roof with the Chauffer, to begin vertical ventilation. Equipment: Six foot hook, and the can when operating with the inside team.

                  Tower ride assignments: 5-6 Man Truck Crew

                  Ventman: Assumes the Hookman’s (outside functions) which allows the Hookman to enter the fire building with the OIC and Barman equipped with a hook and can.

                  Roofman: Responsible for vertical or horizontal ventilation. On multiple story, and high-rise fires, will enter the building with the Ventman to open up the stairwell bulkheads and search the floors above the fire.

                  Engine ride assignments: 4 Man Engine Crew

                  Chauffer: Driver/ Pump Operator.

                  OIC: Enters the fire building with the Lineman and is equipped with radio, TIC, and Hydraram.

                  Lineman: Pulls the attack line and functions as the nozzleman.

                  Layout: Lays out and backs up the Lineman.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FFFRED View Post
                    Dave you are pardoned...

                    The seat assignments are intergral to our accountability and operational efficency and thus is recorded on the BF-4 (riding list on the rig and with the officer) along with the riding board at the firehouse.

                    The men are seated with the tools appropriately positioned near their seats and during a turnout to a box each member can begin sizing up thier duties and responsibilites according to what position they have for the tour.

                    Yes if you are assigned the Irons, at just about every run, (other than a pin job in some Ladders) you will be comming off the rig with the same tools and the same duties. Under no forseeable circumstances baring every Engine man having been rendered a quadripegic will a Truckie ever touch a nozzle other than the one on the end of the can or the end of the TL bucket!

                    If you have the roof, you are without pause going to make your way to the roof by whatever means possible following the guidlines set forth by the job for that position. There could be people hanging from windows and you will not be reassigned to that task as the completion of your assigned duties will in all likelyhood result in more lives and property being saved than if you had begun throwing portable ladders.

                    If you have the Back-Up, you will be the second man in the strech and you will take your folds and drop them on the floor below and flake out the line before backing up the nozzle man for the advance...this is 99.999999999% sure.

                    We do not haphazardly assign roles, duties, responsibilites and tools on sight according to the officers discression. There are RARE occurances where under our procedures the officer is permitted to have a member perform other duties other than those he is typically assigned and those circumstances are expressly outlined in the few places...as in releasing a member of the Engine from the Stretch to open the roof in the absence of a Ladder Co on scene.

                    I hope that answers your question.

                    A question for you...when you arrive and lets say are to perform the duties of the 1st Due Ladder Co(I remember that you guys don't maintain any semblance of company identity..eng or Lad.)...don't you essentially require a man to carry the Irons, another man to carry lets say a hook and a can or another tool 99% of the time? A search needs to be conducted shortly thereafter agressive pre-control overhaul in conjunction with the 1st Due Engine Co. Does it really varry that much that your Chiefs couldn't set out basic assignments for your men just as they have with the officer and Engineer? Wouldn't that make your operations response more predictable, effiecent and safer considering that certain tools and men would always be gauranteed and wouldn't this allow for greater ease in planning operational responses and budget needs for your chiefs?

                    FTM-PTB
                    We do have basic assignments that are required by each company in the order they arrive. We all know what tools are needed for each job, and what jobs are needed on each incident. We just dont assign tools by ridding position.

                    I guess were I loss the seat assignment thing is your irons man always grabs the irons, right? Now, in my world, if say Im 3rd engine in, we are RIG (RIT/FAST) so I would grab the RIG equipment, not the irons. If were 2nd in, we are water supply. Ive never needed irons on a hydrant (yet ). If were first in, if the fires on my side of the rig, I get the knob. If its on the other side, I get the irons.
                    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                    Success is when skill meets opportunity
                    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Same county as hwoods, different battalion.

                      Duty shifts, for volunteers (live-in and local) are one weeknight (Sun. - Thurs.) and a Duty Group rotation for Fridays and Saturdays. Weeknight shift hours are considered from 1700 (when day shift career staff is off duty) to 2400 at the latest, sleep-in if you can. Weekend Group is a 24 hour shift, relieved by the oncoming group, 0700 to 0700 hours. Group schedule rotates so no one group has to always do a Friday night or a Saturday night.

                      Staffing "officially" begins when the majority of the shift for that night is in quarters. Until then riding assignments are left to the discretion of a live-in officer. Apparatus to be staffed are a BLS ambulance, one engine, one truck and one rescue squad. Officer takes a count of personnel on his shift and others in quarters riding that night. Duty shift members have preference over everyone else. With my shift, the other officer and I worked very well together. I prefered the engine, he prefered the truck. When we only had enough to staff two pieces of equipment, the truck crew would take the squad if it was due (we have an odd dispatching system).

                      Engine
                      Officer; Driver; Line; Backup; Hall; Layout
                      The way I used to do riding assignments was that new members ride Layout (engine) or Ladders (truck). Senior man rode Backup (our ICS has it that if the first arriving officer passes Command, the second due engine officer becomes Command). When I rewrote the assignments, we put the senior man at backup, so he could watch the crew if the officer had to take command (rarely happened).
                      Only if a new member was showing promise and confidence, and after riding for awhile, did I put him or her at Line. It usually went to an experienced or senior person.

                      Truck
                      Officer; Driver; F/E; Hook/Can; VES; Ladders
                      If I were riding the truck that night, the senior man got the VES position, based not just on experience, but character and maturity too. Have to be aware of the tendancy to freelance. New member rode Ladders and worked with the Driver throwing ladders, running lights, etc. New member also rode either F/E (Forcible Entry) of Hook/Can, depending on whether or not I believed they could handle the responsibilities and based on watching them during drills and such. An experienced member rode the opposite to them, either F/E of Hook/Can.

                      For the ambulance, we did a rotation taking one man from each piece (engine and truck/squad) so two people were not from the same suppression piece, and so the same two wouldn't take a beating on the ambulance calls.

                      Also, in this county, we have staffing minimums. Three on engines and four on special services. If there was a shift of ten guys riding, we usually went heavy on the special service, i.e. four on the engine and six on the truck or squad.

                      I always watched how the people on our shift acted, worked together and took that into account when making riding assignments. The maturity, how they knew the equipment, whether or not they checked the rig and tools, etc. If a new member was showing good steady progress, taking the initiative, then they would ride Line sooner and more, than a new member who was still having difficuly with things, or was missing his shifts. I also had to take into account that while my shift was mostly local guys, non-students, sometimes live-ins rode, and with students I had to be mindful of their schedule. They might ride for me if staffing were low, but they we also studying, or doing a paper, so if they could, I had them either drive or ride layout or ladders. Same went for the member who showed up, but was under the weather or having a bad day.

                      That's how I did it. Hope it helps.
                      William Carey
                      "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
                      Andy Fredericks,
                      FDNY E.48, SQ.18
                      Alexandria, VA F.D.

                      Rest in Peace

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        FDNY mnemonics

                        Originally posted by VinnieB View Post
                        To go along with what FFRED stated. In my company the junior man working that tour gets the BF-4 from the Boss and gives it to the senior man on the backstep (not the MPO). Basically it goes by this:

                        * RSOT Gets detailed
                        * OT, if in house, gets Door or Control, (not gonna hog the money and the pipe)
                        * Details get the door, unless we are 10-14 then he'll get control, unless he's a truckie....but if he came from an engine...he'll get control.
                        * NEVER, NEVER, NEVER will a truckie EVER get the nozzle in my house, not even if they came from our company before crossing the floor. Even if a truckie relieves the nozzle man, he will not get the Nozzle.
                        * Probies, we start them out on the nozzle until they get a nozzle job, then they will get the other positions.
                        * Our senior man will usually take Control or Door. Control b/c he has the most experiance, door, so he can watch EVERYONE of us on the line.
                        * 24s on the inside are not to be done unless there's some wired reason it must be done....2 details for each tour would be one reason.
                        * If you had the nozzle at the start of the 24, you get control the second part of the 24. Same goes for backup and door.
                        * If you put your papers into another company....you get Control until the transfer happens....even if that takes 6months to a year. If you don't want to be in the company, you do not get the honor and provilage of the Nozzle.

                        That's the jist of it.
                        You new york guys noted the best in trade experiance, but your killin me with the mnemonics. we do things real close to the way you do with the excepion of a few things due mainly to # of personal.but any way whats BF-4, MPO, RSOT, thanks brothers

                        Scratch that Vinn i read on, you already explained it. sorry bout that
                        Last edited by JoshWebb; 12-28-2006, 11:37 AM.
                        345

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                        • #27
                          The more I read the responses here, the better my understanding of the reason for seat assignments. Its not so much the tools, its the actual job each FF is responsible for. Cool.

                          However, I now see why we dont use seat assignments. For the most part, we dont assign idividuals to tasks on their own. We do things in pairs, or crews. Not always of course, but for the most part. A simple example is venting a roof. We dont have a "roof man". If our truck crew is going to cut a roof, everyone on the truck crew (save the engineer) goes to the roof. We would never send one man to the roof, while another throws a ladder while another punches out ground floor windows. We just dont break crews up like that.

                          Is it the best or the most efficient way? Probably not. But its our way (as well as all area departments) so I gues Ill have to live with it.
                          Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                          IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                          "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                          RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                          Success is when skill meets opportunity
                          Failure is when fantasy meets reality

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Well, at least you have some form of accountability with that method. As you say, if it works for your department, then out of all who posted, you're the one who has to deal with it.

                            You asked if it was best or efficient. It could be, since if something happens to one member, all the others would be immediately aware of it. But it would be more efficient if some of the duties, or assignments, were distributed better among the crew. And you can still do things in pairs as well.
                            "If you put the fire out right in the first place, you won't have to jump out the window."
                            Andy Fredericks,
                            FDNY E.48, SQ.18
                            Alexandria, VA F.D.

                            Rest in Peace

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dave1983 View Post
                              We do have basic assignments that are required by each company in the order they arrive. We all know what tools are needed for each job, and what jobs are needed on each incident. We just dont assign tools by ridding position.

                              I guess were I loss the seat assignment thing is your irons man always grabs the irons, right? Now, in my world, if say Im 3rd engine in, we are RIG (RIT/FAST) so I would grab the RIG equipment, not the irons. If were 2nd in, we are water supply. Ive never needed irons on a hydrant (yet ). If were first in, if the fires on my side of the rig, I get the knob. If its on the other side, I get the irons.
                              You are confusing the concept without context...let me see if I can offer some context to help you understand.

                              If you are in the Engine 1st 2nd or 3rd Due...you won't be grabing the Irons as that isn't a position in the Engine...the Irons is a Ladder Co. position. Here they are:

                              -Engine-
                              Officer
                              ECC-MPO-Engine Co. Chauffeur-Motor Pump Operator
                              Nozzle man
                              Back-Up man
                              Door man
                              Control man

                              -Ladder-
                              Officer
                              LCC- Ladder Co. Chauffeur
                              Irons man
                              Can man
                              Roof man
                              OVM- Outside Vent Man

                              If you are in a Ladder Co. you will NEVER need to grab the nozzle and likewise 99.9% of the time no Engine man will need the Irons.

                              If you are the Irons man on Ladder 20 and you are a Fast Truck you are still bringing your Irons along with the other few tools required by the FAST Truck as is every member of the Ladder Co. who will be bringing their normally assigned tools. I don't understand why as a member of your RIG you wouldn't bring a set of Irons if that is what was assigned to you for that tour.

                              If you are the 2nd Due Engine and are supplying another Engine in a relay, you are still whatever you were assigned that tour...nozzle, door control...etc. That doesn't mean you only can grab the nozzle. In fact when we are to perform an In-line pumping stretch in a 4 man Engine the Back up man becomes the hose man and the ECC controls the stretch until the Control man returns from his duties as the hydrant man.

                              I hope that clears some things up.

                              FTM-PTB

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                We dont have a "roof man". If our truck crew is going to cut a roof, everyone on the truck crew (save the engineer) goes to the roof. We would never send one man to the roof,
                                For us, "roof" man from 1st due truck will shortly be joined by "roof" man from 2nd due truck. OV from 1st due will be joined by OV from 2nd due. Irons and Can men from 1st due truck work together as a team. Irons and Can men from 2nd due truck work together as a team. Very rare that anyone would be alone for any length of time.

                                I also know that if I am roof man on 2nd due truck and I get to the roof and no one else is there....someone is missing an unaccounted for and the appropriate radio messages are sent.

                                On the engine, 1st due engine are all on the line in different positions. 2nd due engine, all are on a second line in different positions. But we know who is to be where and if they are not there...appropriate radio messages are sent.

                                We based ours "loosely" on FDNY procedures. Probably two years worth of training to get everyone on board and functioning. We had to do some fine tuning of things to fit our needs. We were lucky...FDNY did all the years and years of work to form those procedures, we were able to cut the time down to form them! Thanks!

                                Yes, we are volunteer and have no one at the stations. Guys get on the trucks, the truck can be assigned as Engine or Truck by IC but we have standard assignments should there not be an available "Chief" to make that call. Enroute to the call, the officer of the truck simply tells the guys we are Engine 1/Engine 2/Truck 1/Truck 2, etc. That's it. The guys then know what they are expected to do. It works for us.

                                There's also cheat sheets in the back listing each position/task/responsibility, but in all honesty, they are rarely looked at anymore.
                                "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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