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  • bcarey
    replied
    Steve,

    Totally off the subject, but how many runs do you normally have for people coming out of those, I'll call them "poor man balconies"? (your number three photograph in the first post of photograpsh) And have you had any members come across them and fall, or almost, while operating?

    Just curious.

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  • bcarey
    replied
    "The likelyhood of lateral spread is almost impossible,"

    Almost.
    Type II Multiple dwelling. Main body of fire in rear bedroom with extension throughout fire apartment.

    Photograph 1.
    Waste line in kitchen of fire apartment looking up to apartment above.

    Photograph 2.
    Main waste line in bathroom of fire apartment looking up to apartment above.

    William Carey
    Attached Files
    Last edited by bcarey; 12-21-2006, 04:09 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SteveDude
    replied
    The First series of photos is a day in day out 'bread and butter' job for UK Inner City Crews, any person at a reasonably busy Station should expect to see a handful of these every month in any combination of Low rise, medium rise or High Rise apartment blocks.

    The Commercial High Rise was a 20 Pump affair back in July 2003. In my 20 years I can only recall around a dozen Commercial High Rises that have gone beyond the floor of origin and only another two that went several floors like this.

    Leave a comment:


  • SteveDude
    replied
    Commercial High Rise, Extension by auto exposure only.



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  • SteveDude
    replied
    I fully agree with all the tactical considerations you have discussed. It is always very tempting to hit the red stuff with the wet stuff without considering where the fire is being pushed. However, these considerations for me are aimed at compex Buildings.

    Once again, I am absolutely astounded that in one of the most advanced Nations in the World, buildings can be 'thrown up' with little regard for fire spread and the subsequent safety of the occupants and Firefighters. The photgraphs look very familiar to any number of small blocks of flats all across the UK...including those where my own Mother lives. Built anytime after the war the one startling difference is...You'd have to bomb them to get them going that well.

    Simply put, they are built from concrete with concrete floors and concrete walls between each flat (apartment) with either Breeze block, brick or plasterboard internal partitions. The likelyhood of lateral spread is almost impossible, but of course their is always a potential for auto exposure to the flat above if the fire is venting through the windows.

    The photos below show a reasonably serious Flat fire in a standard 1950's medium rise apartment block. You will see that the fire took the plaster off and left the walls down to brickwork. The fire travelled out of the room of origin because the door was open and along the hallway causing heat and smoke damage throughout. The fire was knocked down by a 2 man BA Crew using a single line of 1.75 with an akron Combi nozzle from a dry riser (standpipe) had the fire been in a lower block the fire would have certainly been tackled with a high pressure Hosereel (booster).

    In the post below that you will see almost total compartment destruction in a large open planned commercial office. The fire in this building spread fropm 7th to 11th floors due to auto exposure (it was a July fire and the windows were open as the building did not have a HVAC system) Despite the extension to several floors, crews were able to fight each fire from either end of each floor, eventually pushing in following a blitz attack from outside from aerial monitors the walls and floors remained intact.

    As an aside and adding to the smooth bore vs oombi argument we struggled on this job, this is where our Ackron Combi nozzles did not have the 'legs' for the job abd we badly needed hig flow smooth bore nozzles like our old Noble's





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  • hwoods
    replied
    Yup!.........

    The glass is tinted........

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  • hwoods
    replied
    Ok...........

    Backstep. Yup. Charlie is a Fixture in the AFD, been around forever.

    MG, valid points about the Glass, I've had a couple of run-ins with it myself.

    Kayak, Perceptive view on your part, I agree that the glass is probably tinted. I'll try to reach the Photographer and ask a few questions, since, as you said, the Aluminum frame isn't stained.

    Bob, good point on the expense of safety items. We get most improvements when they are mandated by legislation, instead of waiting on the "Goodwill" of the Landlords. One thing that has been beneficial about our Sprinkler Laws, when the cost of repairs to an unsprinklered property reaches 50% of the value of the repaired building, it must be fully sprinklered when rebuilt. And, any building renovation/remodeling work that hits that 50% mark will also trigger the sprinkler requirement.

    Leave a comment:


  • MemphisE34a
    replied
    MG,

    A valid point to consider, but I can assure you that anything that costs extra , like energy efficient windows, will not be found on any apartments in my territory.

    Leave a comment:


  • MG3610
    replied
    while not specific to garden apartments, 2 of the last fires I was on reinforced the strength of energy efficient windows. The interior of both places was gutted, but the fire never caused the windows to fail. More notably, the breaking of the windows required some major league baseball type swings with hooks to clear the glass (thats a hell of a sound when they finally go). I tried taking a window with the knob on one before the outside vent guys made their way around and it just kept bouncing off (obviously a last ditch attemt in the absence of a tool but I wasnt willing to take a steam shower).

    Perhaps this stairwell is heavily charged but the windows are handling the heat well.

    Leave a comment:


  • MemphisE34a
    replied
    Originally posted by BackstepFF View Post
    Yes, photos represent a fraction of a second in time but they also don't lie. So you're saying that we can not or should not use photos for training or critique purposes because "they represent a fraction of a second in time"?
    I am not saying that at all. I am saying that it would be a more thorough and true to life critique if you had the story that goes along with the picture.

    And I agree by the way that these kind of debates are good even when we don't know the entire story and maybe do not 100% agree. There could be an up and coming firefighter out there that reads our debate and notices or catches onto a strategy or tactic that maybe he or his department has not employed in the past. He could bring what he has read in this forum up at the next firehouse kitchen table firefight and see what the members of his company or station think about it, and so on it goes.

    Leave a comment:


  • kayakking
    replied
    Backstep FF...You see more in the photos than I can. The glass in the common area may be soot stained, but I can't see it. The glass is certainly dark, but in such a uniform way that it looks like tinted glass. In the second picture where the door to the common area is open, I don't see any soot staining at the top of the door area on the metal header where I'd expect it.

    I do enjoy the conversations that are started by throwing a photo up, however, I don't think you can assume as much as you have. It's worth discussing the possibility that the common area was left unprotected, but its not a certainty based on their attacking the fire through the patio.

    I agree with some of the others that they may have visualized the area...and made a conscious decision to not go that route so they could leave the door to the fire apartment shut...thus maintaing a "clean" area to do evac's of other apartments. If mainpower allows, a line to protect this area is a good practice. They may have done that...I can't tell.

    I'm all for the discussions...so, please, if you have more pics...throw 'em out.

    Leave a comment:


  • BackstepFF
    replied
    Originally posted by hwoods View Post
    Backstep, do you happen to know the Photographer who took those shots?? He's been a friend of mine for years....
    Chief,
    If it's the the same person I think it is, wasn't he a Captain at Rescue Hose Co. back when they were in the house on West Street? I only met him a couple of times and this was probably in the late 70's, early 80's, but a dedicated guy and a true gentleman as I recall.

    The thing about getting old is I can remember 30 years ago pretty well, but I can't remember where I put my glasses five minutes ago!

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    And Now........

    Backstep, do you happen to know the Photographer who took those shots?? He's been a friend of mine for years....

    Leave a comment:


  • BackstepFF
    replied
    Originally posted by MemphisE34a
    You see a heck of alot better than I do I guess, because I do not see any of that...
    The problem with critiqueing photographs is that they represent a fraction of a second in time...
    Just for the record, I also didn't see the wide open fog pattern you described in your original post. Are you sure your not seeing things to try and justify your position??
    Seeing things to try and justify my position? LOL. Thanks. The intent of my original post was to create some discussion about tactics, not to argue for the sake of arguing.

    Yes, photos represent a fraction of a second in time but they also don't lie. So you're saying that we can not or should not use photos for training or critique purposes because "they represent a fraction of a second in time"?

    If we don't agree about what they did, thats fine, you're entitled. If you don't see what I see that's fine too, and if by some chance you just don't get it, Guess what? That's fine. Be safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • MemphisE34a
    replied
    Backstep,

    You see a heck of alot better than I do I guess, because I do not see any of that. Maybe you have inside information being local from the news reports or perhaps you know people who were there.

    The problem with critiqueing photographs is that they represent a fraction of a second in time.

    I see a reflection in the windows. After they are opened I see no smoke venting and shadows. I would think that soot staining as you see would result in some kind of smoke in that area.

    How do we know that prior to going to the patio, the officer did not open the door to the common interior stairs and see that their was little or no smoke and that the door to the fire apartment was intact and make a decision to attack the way they did??

    I 100% agree with you that locate, confine, and extinguish are sound objectives and need to almost always need to be accomplished in that order. I in fact cannot think of a time that you would vary from that, but I don't want to say never - know what I mean.

    From my view, I think these folks could have very well accomplished those tasks.

    Just for the record, I also didn't see the wide open fog pattern you described in your original post. Are you sure your not seeing things to try and justify your position?? =))

    Leave a comment:

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