Bail out systems

[Fireground1]

It doesnt take much of a slip to f&$# up using this method.

if thats all you have...use it rather than falling

[KEEPBACK200FEET]

I think that the system looks like it has some merits...however, I'm curious...

After hearing one of the last "Through the Smoke" Broadcasts, it was said that the "body belay" or using your gloved hands as a friction device is "out." Is this due to wet gloves, etc.? What are the reasons? My question is due to the fact that every survival class I've ever taken, including those taught by Salka and McCormack, has taught this method. Will there be a huge nationwide shift away from this method, or will it still be considered viable?

We have used the "old" way when teaching the techniques to my fellow firefighters; we've also passed the information on to fire departments that will *probably* never to be able to afford any other type of bailout system.

I like to keep my training and instruction up-to-date, plus I DO NOT WANT TO INJURE OR KILL ANY FIREFIGHTERS.

Will Petzl offer a Train-the-trainer for using the PSS in the event that someone in my region wants to purchase such equipment? Or will trainers only be selected by the company?

It doesnt take much of a slip to f&$# up using this method.

[doughesson]

sooo, nobody uses webbing?

On my old vollie department,we'd all buy our own webbing:20 feet looped and tied with a figure 8.Jam your hallegan in a corner of a 2nd story window frame,catspaw the loop,toss the bitter end out the window,check the ground below and slide for life.
"Catspaw":hold the middle of a line in both hands and turn your hands from palms in to palms out.You can then slide the bar through the loop thusly made and it will lock down on the bar when you pull on it some.

We were also getting some of the 5 ring web tubing loops(kind of looks like the Olympic rings)for self rescue,hose tying,tying in a ladder,etc.The ones we looked at cost beau coup bucks so the idea was to make them ourselves out of locally procured tube webbing .

[Halligan84]

[Originally Posted by Nine3Probie
Another question regarding this system. Maybe a silly one...but as I've always said, the only silly questions are the ones that go un-asked. Here it goes...

IIRC, NFPA says that "Life safety rope" is a one time use...then must be relegated to use as a utility rope. Should a FF need to use this system, will they/the department need to purchase a whole replacement "set?" Or can just the rope be replaced with appropriate 7.5mm rope and incorporated into the system?



If you had to truly bail under emergency conditions, hang your old one up on the wall, hopefully its a once in a lifetime experience. If bail outs start to get expensive in replacing components, might want to consider why you are jumping out a window so often!

[Fireground1]

sooo, nobody uses webbing?

for what? bail out? harnessses what?

[SubWay1]

webbing

sooo, nobody uses webbing?

[Fireground1]

Another question regarding this system. Maybe a silly one...but as I've always said, the only silly questions are the ones that go un-asked. Here it goes...

IIRC, NFPA says that "Life safety rope" is a one time use...then must be relegated to use as a utility rope. Should a FF need to use this system, will they/the department need to purchase a whole replacement "set?" Or can just the rope be replaced with appropriate 7.5mm rope and incorporated into the system?

Petzl recommends that all components be inspected by a "knowledgeable person" or by an authorized trainer/dealer after evey use whether it be in training or an actual life saving deployment. Periodic inspection is also recommended.

[Fireground1]

I think that the system looks like it has some merits...however, I'm curious...

After hearing one of the last "Through the Smoke" Broadcasts, it was said that the "body belay" or using your gloved hands as a friction device is "out." Is this due to wet gloves, etc.? What are the reasons? My question is due to the fact that every survival class I've ever taken, including those taught by Salka and McCormack, has taught this method. Will there be a huge nationwide shift away from this method, or will it still be considered viable?

We have used the "old" way when teaching the techniques to my fellow firefighters; we've also passed the information on to fire departments that will *probably* never to be able to afford any other type of bailout system.

I like to keep my training and instruction up-to-date, plus I DO NOT WANT TO INJURE OR KILL ANY FIREFIGHTERS.

Will Petzl offer a Train-the-trainer for using the PSS in the event that someone in my region wants to purchase such equipment? Or will trainers only be selected by the company?

Keep teaching techniques. The EXO or any other device is a great ad on to any knowledge learned. The basic bail out procedures you have learned and tech will always have a place, regardless of what descending devices are out there. Petzl has authorized trainers to teach both end user classes and train the trainer classes..... www.firegroundtech.com

[rescue84]

Fire Innovations Colorado belt with large D carrabiner and 50 ft. 8mm rope

trying to push this as a standard untill we can afford a better system. Only about 5 of us have harnesses and rope.

[Fireground1]

Are the bags that are part of the above Kit the same bags that we were issued with the PSS or are they something more usable? The system is good but the bag is horrendous (at best), like having a lunch box strapped to your hip.

While Petzl says "do not use..." members of this board, and loads of others have used this device successfully and safely which means to me that it works (I however am not a corporate liabity specialist nor a salesperson for the corporation or a company affiliated with said corporation). Petzl says "it is not intended for..." well, do you think the folks at Scott are going to tell you it's ok to use an scba for an anchor, or the folks at firehooks come out and say "jamb my halligan into the corner of the window and go..."

There are very few things that we use in the fire service that were designed and produced for the fire service, firefighters saw things from other industries and adapted them for firefighting, that is how the new petzl device came about too.

The bag that Petzl has come up with is a lighter version (material). It attaches basically in the same method as the FDNY bag. As far as Petzl is concerned, the Grigri was a device designed for belaying and descending outside the fire service. The EXO has been tailored to the Fire service by adding certain engineering items alone with stroger materials to hold up to the abuse within the fire service. Obviously Petzl cannot enforce any actions outside their recomondations, however from a liability standpoint,Petzl has made it perfectly clear that the EXO is the only device at this time intended for Firefighter self rescue situations. Whatever a firefighter elects to do outside the manufacturer's recomendations is soley by their choice. As far as the Scott and the Fire Hooks Unlimited issue, It would be safe to say that neither company approves or endorces those particular items being used in the fashion that you have mentioned. Again, what happens on the fire ground may dictate using tools and escape systems as necessary. These bail out procedures are still being taught which is more of a tactical procedure than anything to do with a particular device. Hope this helps ya out.

[Nine3Probie]

Another question regarding this system. Maybe a silly one...but as I've always said, the only silly questions are the ones that go un-asked. Here it goes...

IIRC, NFPA says that "Life safety rope" is a one time use...then must be relegated to use as a utility rope. Should a FF need to use this system, will they/the department need to purchase a whole replacement "set?" Or can just the rope be replaced with appropriate 7.5mm rope and incorporated into the system?

[phyrngn]

Bailing Out

I think that the system looks like it has some merits...however, I'm curious...

After hearing one of the last "Through the Smoke" Broadcasts, it was said that the "body belay" or using your gloved hands as a friction device is "out." Is this due to wet gloves, etc.? What are the reasons? My question is due to the fact that every survival class I've ever taken, including those taught by Salka and McCormack, has taught this method. Will there be a huge nationwide shift away from this method, or will it still be considered viable?

We have used the "old" way when teaching the techniques to my fellow firefighters; we've also passed the information on to fire departments that will *probably* never to be able to afford any other type of bailout system.

I like to keep my training and instruction up-to-date, plus I DO NOT WANT TO INJURE OR KILL ANY FIREFIGHTERS.

Will Petzl offer a Train-the-trainer for using the PSS in the event that someone in my region wants to purchase such equipment? Or will trainers only be selected by the company?

[jfTL41]

Are the bags that are part of the above Kit the same bags that we were issued with the PSS or are they something more usable? The system is good but the bag is horrendous (at best), like having a lunch box strapped to your hip.

While Petzl says "do not use..." members of this board, and loads of others have used this device successfully and safely which means to me that it works (I however am not a corporate liabity specialist nor a salesperson for the corporation or a company affiliated with said corporation). Petzl says "it is not intended for..." well, do you think the folks at Scott are going to tell you it's ok to use an scba for an anchor, or the folks at firehooks come out and say "jamb my halligan into the corner of the window and go..."

There are very few things that we use in the fire service that were designed and produced for the fire service, firefighters saw things from other industries and adapted them for firefighting, that is how the new petzl device came about too.

[cdemarse]

The EXO will NOT be available as a component. Petzl is standing by the fact that firefighter safety is a priority. For that reason the EXO will only be sold as a PSS system in its entirety. This means that a buyer will get the bag, rope, hook, "ok" carabiner and the EXO as a complete kit. Reasoning is that once the system is sold as an NFPA certified system there is no chance of any firefighter augmenting the system with an unapproved device, rope etc....

Gotcha
Thanks

[Fireground1]

Steve Thanks for the info and I hear where you are coming from with the safety points.

I understand that the GriGri is not NFPA compliant but, I am making due with what I have available. Most tools/items in the fire service did not start out designed for firefighters, only after that item was widely used did they get tweaked(redesigned) and become NFPA compliant. I have switched my rope to 10mm NFPA compliant rope as per the specs for the GriGri.

Hell its not that I do not want to use/purchase the EXO, I would buy one immediately, but that is not an option yet. I personally would rather have a non-NFPA compliant GriGri for my personal bail-out system than nothing at all. Its better to have and not need than to need and not have.

You say that the EXO should be available in early 2007. My question is
Available in the PSS kit or available for EXO purchase only?

Again thank you for posting in this thread with specs, info, and safety precaution.

Curt

The EXO will NOT be available as a component. Petzl is standing by the fact that firefighter safety is a priority. For that reason the EXO will only be sold as a PSS system in its entirety. This means that a buyer will get the bag, rope, hook, "ok" carabiner and the EXO as a complete kit. Reasoning is that once the system is sold as an NFPA certified system there is no chance of any firefighter augmenting the system with an unapproved device, rope etc....