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  • #16
    EXO rope

    Originally posted by cdemarse
    7.5mm rope is fine on the GriGri.

    The harness is defiantly the way to go but I guess not necessary.

    THE PETZL GRIGRI IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TO BE USED FOR FIRE SERVICE RESCUE, IT IS ALSO NOT NFPA APPROVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND DO NOT, DO NOT USE 7.5MM ROPE WITH THE GRIGRI! ONLY 10.5MM!!!!!!!! BAD INFO GOES ALONG WAY!!!

    Comment


    • #17
      Obviously I have been given the wrong info and I stand corrected on what has been changed on the EXO. I cannot delete my posts. If some could report them stating it is the incorrect info and ask for them to be deleted.

      On a side note all components of the system I put together, I have personally tested numerous times without failure or problems.
      Last edited by cdemarse; 12-14-2006, 06:51 PM.
      "Train as if your life depends on it"
      Always Remember *343*

      Comment


      • #18
        This is a great discussion. Bailout equipment really kicked in heavy this year in the fire service. It was a big buzz at the trade shows earlier this year. Interested in a "escape / bailout bags" ? Just know the difference between "kits" and "systems".

        * Kits are usually a group of componenets, some maybe NFPA certified and some may not be, but are all thrown together in a bag. They do not meet any standards.
        * Systems are comprised of components that, all together, are tested as a complete system and are "certified" to NFPA standards.

        Now... different trainers are teaching different things. I have attended some training that teaches the "rope and a carabiner" method, and for some that may work. It seems (and what I use) that certified systems with the class-2 Gemtor harness are the best and the safest solution out there. Things may change and advance, but the RIT Rescue & Escape Systems units and the Petzl EXO with a class-2 harness are the real deal. I've used both and was very pleased.

        As far as training and equipment goes, I contacted the guys at All Hands Fire Equipment ( www.allhandsfire.com ) and they were a tremendous help and provide discounts for guys buying stuff out of their own pockets (like me). The guys at RIT ( www.ritrescuesystems.com ) are also very helpful - Dave and Chris.

        I hope that this helps. Stay safe boys and girls..............

        Comment


        • #19
          Petzl EXO Personal Escape System

          From: Steve Alsup, Petzl Northeast Technical Sales Representative - Work & Rescue Division:

          The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is the only device marketed by Petzl as such. The EXO Personal Escape System has been extensivley tested and meets NFPA 1983 2006 standard as a Personal Escape System.

          While the Grigri provided a strong foundation for design of the EXO, The Grigri is NOT INTENDED to be part of a Firefighter Personal Escape System. Also, the Grigri is designed for ropes between 10 and 11mm in diameter.

          The EXO should be available in early 2007. If you have any questions regarding the EXO or any other Petzl product, please email me at [email protected]

          As with any life safety equipment, please be 100% sure you are using the equipment properly and according to the manufacturer directions. If you are unsure about the specifications or use of any equipment, please seek training from a qualified training organization.

          Activities involving the use of the Grigri or EXO are inherently dangerous. You are responsible for your own actions and decisions.
          Before using Grigri or EXO, you must :
          - Read and understand the Product Information.
          - Become acquainted with the product’s capabilities and limitations.
          - Understand and accept the risks involved.
          Additionally, you should get qualified instruction in its proper use.
          FAILURE TO HEED ANY OF THESE WARNINGS MAY RESULT IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH.

          GRIGRI NOTICE>>>>>>>>>>

          Grigri Self-Braking Belay Device

          It has come to my attention that there is interest in using the Petzl GriGri as a firefighter emergency bail out descent control device. The GriGri is NOT INTENDED FOR USE WITH 7.5 or 8mm ROPE. For your information, the GriGri is NOT certified under the NFPA standards as a firefighter personal escape system. The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is NFPA certified and is the only Petzl product marketed as such. Please spread this correct information to your customers.

          For clarification and information:

          The Petzl GriGri Self Braking Belay Device is to be used in conjunction with ropes of diameters from 10mm to 11mm.


          Technical Notice: http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices...I_D14601-I.pdf

          GRIGRI®
          Self-braking belay device
          Device for belaying a leader or a second and for single rope descents.
          • Self-braking system: if the rope suddenly comes under tension (e.g. in a fall), the cam pivots to pinch the rope, thus helping the belayer stop the climber's fall.
          • Usage is similar to that of conventional belay devices:
          o giving/taking slack is done by using both hands to slide the rope through the device,
          o falls are held by holding the free end of the rope,
          o for lowering and rappelling, the rate of descent is controlled by the hand holding the free end of the rope (the rope is released with the handle).
          Certification
          CE
          Technical specifications
          For ropes of diameters from 10 to 11 mm.
          225 g.

          Steve Alsup
          Northeast Representative
          Petzl America
          Work & Rescue Division
          (877) 807-3805 ext. 7161, toll-free
          [email protected]
          www.petzl.com

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by salsup View Post
            From: Steve Alsup, Petzl Northeast Technical Sales Representative - Work & Rescue Division:

            The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is the only device marketed by Petzl as such. The EXO Personal Escape System has been extensivley tested and meets NFPA 1983 2006 standard as a Personal Escape System.

            While the Grigri provided a strong foundation for design of the EXO, The Grigri is NOT INTENDED to be part of a Firefighter Personal Escape System. Also, the Grigri is designed for ropes between 10 and 11mm in diameter.

            The EXO should be available in early 2007. If you have any questions regarding the EXO or any other Petzl product, please email me at [email protected]

            As with any life safety equipment, please be 100% sure you are using the equipment properly and according to the manufacturer directions. If you are unsure about the specifications or use of any equipment, please seek training from a qualified training organization.

            Activities involving the use of the Grigri or EXO are inherently dangerous. You are responsible for your own actions and decisions.
            Before using Grigri or EXO, you must :
            - Read and understand the Product Information.
            - Become acquainted with the product’s capabilities and limitations.
            - Understand and accept the risks involved.
            Additionally, you should get qualified instruction in its proper use.
            FAILURE TO HEED ANY OF THESE WARNINGS MAY RESULT IN SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH.

            GRIGRI NOTICE>>>>>>>>>>

            Grigri Self-Braking Belay Device

            It has come to my attention that there is interest in using the Petzl GriGri as a firefighter emergency bail out descent control device. The GriGri is NOT INTENDED FOR USE WITH 7.5 or 8mm ROPE. For your information, the GriGri is NOT certified under the NFPA standards as a firefighter personal escape system. The Petzl EXO Personal Escape System is NFPA certified and is the only Petzl product marketed as such. Please spread this correct information to your customers.

            For clarification and information:

            The Petzl GriGri Self Braking Belay Device is to be used in conjunction with ropes of diameters from 10mm to 11mm.


            Technical Notice: http://en.petzl.com/ProduitsServices...I_D14601-I.pdf

            GRIGRI®
            Self-braking belay device
            Device for belaying a leader or a second and for single rope descents.
            • Self-braking system: if the rope suddenly comes under tension (e.g. in a fall), the cam pivots to pinch the rope, thus helping the belayer stop the climber's fall.
            • Usage is similar to that of conventional belay devices:
            o giving/taking slack is done by using both hands to slide the rope through the device,
            o falls are held by holding the free end of the rope,
            o for lowering and rappelling, the rate of descent is controlled by the hand holding the free end of the rope (the rope is released with the handle).
            Certification
            CE
            Technical specifications
            For ropes of diameters from 10 to 11 mm.
            225 g.

            Steve Alsup
            Northeast Representative
            Petzl America
            Work & Rescue Division
            (877) 807-3805 ext. 7161, toll-free
            [email protected]
            www.petzl.com
            Steve Thanks for the info and I hear where you are coming from with the safety points.

            I understand that the GriGri is not NFPA compliant but, I am making due with what I have available. Most tools/items in the fire service did not start out designed for firefighters, only after that item was widely used did they get tweaked(redesigned) and become NFPA compliant. I have switched my rope to 10mm NFPA compliant rope as per the specs for the GriGri.

            Hell its not that I do not want to use/purchase the EXO, I would buy one immediately, but that is not an option yet. I personally would rather have a non-NFPA compliant GriGri for my personal bail-out system than nothing at all. Its better to have and not need than to need and not have.

            You say that the EXO should be available in early 2007. My question is
            Available in the PSS kit or available for EXO purchase only?

            Again thank you for posting in this thread with specs, info, and safety precaution.

            Curt
            "Train as if your life depends on it"
            Always Remember *343*

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by cdemarse View Post
              Steve Thanks for the info and I hear where you are coming from with the safety points.

              I understand that the GriGri is not NFPA compliant but, I am making due with what I have available. Most tools/items in the fire service did not start out designed for firefighters, only after that item was widely used did they get tweaked(redesigned) and become NFPA compliant. I have switched my rope to 10mm NFPA compliant rope as per the specs for the GriGri.

              Hell its not that I do not want to use/purchase the EXO, I would buy one immediately, but that is not an option yet. I personally would rather have a non-NFPA compliant GriGri for my personal bail-out system than nothing at all. Its better to have and not need than to need and not have.

              You say that the EXO should be available in early 2007. My question is
              Available in the PSS kit or available for EXO purchase only?

              Again thank you for posting in this thread with specs, info, and safety precaution.

              Curt
              The EXO will NOT be available as a component. Petzl is standing by the fact that firefighter safety is a priority. For that reason the EXO will only be sold as a PSS system in its entirety. This means that a buyer will get the bag, rope, hook, "ok" carabiner and the EXO as a complete kit. Reasoning is that once the system is sold as an NFPA certified system there is no chance of any firefighter augmenting the system with an unapproved device, rope etc....

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Fireground1 View Post
                The EXO will NOT be available as a component. Petzl is standing by the fact that firefighter safety is a priority. For that reason the EXO will only be sold as a PSS system in its entirety. This means that a buyer will get the bag, rope, hook, "ok" carabiner and the EXO as a complete kit. Reasoning is that once the system is sold as an NFPA certified system there is no chance of any firefighter augmenting the system with an unapproved device, rope etc....
                Gotcha
                Thanks
                "Train as if your life depends on it"
                Always Remember *343*

                Comment


                • #23
                  Are the bags that are part of the above Kit the same bags that we were issued with the PSS or are they something more usable? The system is good but the bag is horrendous (at best), like having a lunch box strapped to your hip.

                  While Petzl says "do not use..." members of this board, and loads of others have used this device successfully and safely which means to me that it works (I however am not a corporate liabity specialist nor a salesperson for the corporation or a company affiliated with said corporation). Petzl says "it is not intended for..." well, do you think the folks at Scott are going to tell you it's ok to use an scba for an anchor, or the folks at firehooks come out and say "jamb my halligan into the corner of the window and go..."

                  There are very few things that we use in the fire service that were designed and produced for the fire service, firefighters saw things from other industries and adapted them for firefighting, that is how the new petzl device came about too.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Bailing Out

                    I think that the system looks like it has some merits...however, I'm curious...

                    After hearing one of the last "Through the Smoke" Broadcasts, it was said that the "body belay" or using your gloved hands as a friction device is "out." Is this due to wet gloves, etc.? What are the reasons? My question is due to the fact that every survival class I've ever taken, including those taught by Salka and McCormack, has taught this method. Will there be a huge nationwide shift away from this method, or will it still be considered viable?

                    We have used the "old" way when teaching the techniques to my fellow firefighters; we've also passed the information on to fire departments that will *probably* never to be able to afford any other type of bailout system.

                    I like to keep my training and instruction up-to-date, plus I DO NOT WANT TO INJURE OR KILL ANY FIREFIGHTERS.

                    Will Petzl offer a Train-the-trainer for using the PSS in the event that someone in my region wants to purchase such equipment? Or will trainers only be selected by the company?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Another question regarding this system. Maybe a silly one...but as I've always said, the only silly questions are the ones that go un-asked. Here it goes...

                      IIRC, NFPA says that "Life safety rope" is a one time use...then must be relegated to use as a utility rope. Should a FF need to use this system, will they/the department need to purchase a whole replacement "set?" Or can just the rope be replaced with appropriate 7.5mm rope and incorporated into the system?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by jfTL41 View Post
                        Are the bags that are part of the above Kit the same bags that we were issued with the PSS or are they something more usable? The system is good but the bag is horrendous (at best), like having a lunch box strapped to your hip.

                        While Petzl says "do not use..." members of this board, and loads of others have used this device successfully and safely which means to me that it works (I however am not a corporate liabity specialist nor a salesperson for the corporation or a company affiliated with said corporation). Petzl says "it is not intended for..." well, do you think the folks at Scott are going to tell you it's ok to use an scba for an anchor, or the folks at firehooks come out and say "jamb my halligan into the corner of the window and go..."

                        There are very few things that we use in the fire service that were designed and produced for the fire service, firefighters saw things from other industries and adapted them for firefighting, that is how the new petzl device came about too.
                        The bag that Petzl has come up with is a lighter version (material). It attaches basically in the same method as the FDNY bag. As far as Petzl is concerned, the Grigri was a device designed for belaying and descending outside the fire service. The EXO has been tailored to the Fire service by adding certain engineering items alone with stroger materials to hold up to the abuse within the fire service. Obviously Petzl cannot enforce any actions outside their recomondations, however from a liability standpoint,Petzl has made it perfectly clear that the EXO is the only device at this time intended for Firefighter self rescue situations. Whatever a firefighter elects to do outside the manufacturer's recomendations is soley by their choice. As far as the Scott and the Fire Hooks Unlimited issue, It would be safe to say that neither company approves or endorces those particular items being used in the fashion that you have mentioned. Again, what happens on the fire ground may dictate using tools and escape systems as necessary. These bail out procedures are still being taught which is more of a tactical procedure than anything to do with a particular device. Hope this helps ya out.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Fire Innovations Colorado belt with large D carrabiner and 50 ft. 8mm rope

                          trying to push this as a standard untill we can afford a better system. Only about 5 of us have harnesses and rope.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by phyrngn View Post
                            I think that the system looks like it has some merits...however, I'm curious...

                            After hearing one of the last "Through the Smoke" Broadcasts, it was said that the "body belay" or using your gloved hands as a friction device is "out." Is this due to wet gloves, etc.? What are the reasons? My question is due to the fact that every survival class I've ever taken, including those taught by Salka and McCormack, has taught this method. Will there be a huge nationwide shift away from this method, or will it still be considered viable?

                            We have used the "old" way when teaching the techniques to my fellow firefighters; we've also passed the information on to fire departments that will *probably* never to be able to afford any other type of bailout system.

                            I like to keep my training and instruction up-to-date, plus I DO NOT WANT TO INJURE OR KILL ANY FIREFIGHTERS.

                            Will Petzl offer a Train-the-trainer for using the PSS in the event that someone in my region wants to purchase such equipment? Or will trainers only be selected by the company?
                            Keep teaching techniques. The EXO or any other device is a great ad on to any knowledge learned. The basic bail out procedures you have learned and tech will always have a place, regardless of what descending devices are out there. Petzl has authorized trainers to teach both end user classes and train the trainer classes..... www.firegroundtech.com

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nine3Probie View Post
                              Another question regarding this system. Maybe a silly one...but as I've always said, the only silly questions are the ones that go un-asked. Here it goes...

                              IIRC, NFPA says that "Life safety rope" is a one time use...then must be relegated to use as a utility rope. Should a FF need to use this system, will they/the department need to purchase a whole replacement "set?" Or can just the rope be replaced with appropriate 7.5mm rope and incorporated into the system?
                              Petzl recommends that all components be inspected by a "knowledgeable person" or by an authorized trainer/dealer after evey use whether it be in training or an actual life saving deployment. Periodic inspection is also recommended.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                webbing

                                sooo, nobody uses webbing?

                                Comment

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