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  • Bail out systems

    There has been much discussion in reference to bail out systems, since the tragic LODD's and serious injuries sustained by members of the FDNY in the Black Sunday incident in the Bronx.
    The FDNY has gone to great lengths to come up with a system to provide its members, to hopefully prevent out comes such as those that resulted in the Black Sunday incident.
    I recently had a discussion with retired FDNY Lt. Larry Cohen about bail out systems. Lt. Cohen is a certified trainer for the Gemtor harness and the Petzl EXO PSS (Personal Safety System) being used by the FDNY.
    In my discussion with Lt. Cohen I learned that you can not purchase the Petzl EXO PSS without first going through certification training.
    I think this is a great safety measure being taken on the part of Petzl to unsure that firefighters know how to properly use the Petzl EXO PSS before they are able to purchase and use the system.
    My questions to the members of this forum are, What type of bail out system do you currently use? If you are using a bail out system, is the system standard thoughout your department? And finally, Did you do any training prior to putting the system in service.
    I am currently using a Gut belt with a rope bag attached to it with 40' of rope, a mini rescue 8, and 2 carabiners. Our department does not have a standard bail out system, we have done training but nothing formal. After doing some research will be trying to get our department to invest in the Gemtor-Petzl system and the training that goes with it. The firefighter is a departments most important tool, I think the investment is worth it. If departments would put less bells and whistles on the apparatus and invest more in firefighter training and safety maybe we could reduce deaths and injuries.
    I feel that a standard bail out system should be a part of our standard issued equipment as well as the training that goes with it.
    I would encourage anyone looking for training and information about bail out systems to contact Larry Cohen at www.firegroundtech.com

  • #2
    I keep it simple. All I carry is 30 ft of 8mm line with a large carabiners on one end. I pack it into a ems glove and put it in my right pant pocket. I took a ff survival class out side of the dept before buying it for my self.

    Comment


    • #3
      Lot of stuff can be learned from Larry and his team.
      "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

      Comment


      • #4
        30 feet of rope, figure 8 in one end, for looping over a haligan or pick head.
        "If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."
        ********

        IACOJ

        ********

        "Criticism is prejudice made plausible."
        - H. L. Mencken (1880-1956)

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        • #5
          We just retrofitted the 50' FFRED bail out system on all of our Draegar 4500 Air Boss packs, and all new units will be spec'd with that option from Draegar. The old 2216 packs will not be upgraded as they are due for retirement in the next year or two. Currently, the old packs are all in second-line service anyway.

          http://www.ritrescuesystems.com/faqs.php

          We have trained all ff's on basic rapelling through the normal training program, and that same program does cover the basics of bail outs, but specific training and certification on the FFRED system will take place over the winter months.
          Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

          IACOJ

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          • #6
            We carry rope bags with 2 caribiners on the rope, I have mine attached to my gear so if I need to use it all I have to do is take it out of my pocket and drop it out the window, and tie off on a tool or something and out the window you go. As I stated before a while ago, we go to the Fire House Expo and take a class and if you have a chance take FF SURVIVAL taught by John Salka and his buddies or what not, the class is excellent and is worth attending, In that class you'll learn how to do a rope bailout,ladder bailout, room orientation (confidence builder) wall breach It's a good class and if you have any idea they will listen to you and talk about it. BE SAFE!!

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            • #7
              I put together a system that is damn near identical to the FDNY's. The only difference is my rope bag does not have a hook holder it just sits on top of the rope, and I am using a Petzl GriGri descender instead of the EXO. The GriGri descender is what FDNY tested thousands of times until it frayed a rope. They added and eyelet and called it the EXO. The GriGri is cheaper and for the most part the same descender. If I only fray a rope after a couple thousand bailouts, I am fine with that.

              All items can be bought online. Most of mine came from www.allhandsfire.com

              A lot of people do not have time or money to go get certified with the EXO system. Like everything esle train with it before you put it in service though.
              Last edited by cdemarse; 12-11-2006, 06:42 PM.
              "Train as if your life depends on it"
              Always Remember *343*

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              • #8
                We have it, and love it. RIT Rescue

                I also carry 50ft of Kevlar rope with 2 large caribiners, one on each end in my coat pocket.

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                • #9
                  This might be better for a separate topic, but what are the advantages to a descender in this application?

                  I've used figure 8's and found them to be slow compared to a single or double wrap on a D ring. Basically, I'm just wondering if they're needed for self rescue applications.
                  I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

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                  • #10
                    IMO the biggest advantage to the GriGri descender is the fact that I dont have to have total rope control when I bail out the window. The GriGri has a safety on it so it there is a sudden shock it stops rope travel.

                    Its very simple to bail out with the FDNY system. You grab your Crosby hook, cup the hook around the window frame and get out, Descender will lock all you have to do now is reach up and pull the descent lever to the speed you want.

                    This is a GriGri http://www.allhandsfire.com/page/AHF...ponent/PTZ-D14

                    And this is general info and a video of the System in operation.
                    Right below the first paragraph is the video.

                    http://www.allhandsfire.com/exo.html
                    "Train as if your life depends on it"
                    Always Remember *343*

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                    • #11
                      now I get it. I was picturing something completely different.
                      I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

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                      • #12
                        I have appx 40 foot of 8mm line with a 'beaner on each end. I also have a figure eight on one end, but if it really came down to it, I'd probably skip using the figure eight and use the airpack slide method instead.
                        Just know, I chose my own fate. I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

                        Originally posted by FlyingKiwi
                        Go put your pussy 2 1/2" lines away kiddies.

                        Originally posted by Explorer343

                        By the way KEEPBACK200FEET, you're so dramatic!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cdemarse
                          The GriGri descender is what FDNY tested thousands of times until it frayed a rope. They added and eyelet and called it the EXO. The GriGri is cheaper and for the most part the same descender.
                          It looks like the GriGri is made for 10/11mm climbing rope, while the EXO comes with slimmer 7mm. At least based on the link. The EXO (or homebuilt GriGri variety) looks pretty good though. Doesn't it require a Gemtor that isn't included/shown?
                          So you call this your free country
                          Tell me why it costs so much to live
                          -3dd

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                          • #14
                            7.5mm rope is fine on the GriGri.

                            The harness is defiantly the way to go but I guess not necessary.
                            "Train as if your life depends on it"
                            Always Remember *343*

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Petzl EXO corrections!

                              Originally posted by cdemarse
                              I put together a system that is damn near identical to the FDNY's. The only difference is my rope bag does not have a hook holder it just sits on top of the rope, and I am using a Petzl GriGri descender instead of the EXO. The GriGri descender is what FDNY tested thousands of times until it frayed a rope. They added and eyelet and called it the EXO. The GriGri is cheaper and for the most part the same descender. If I only fray a rope after a couple thousand bailouts, I am fine with that.

                              All items can be bought online. Most of mine came from www.allhandsfire.com

                              A lot of people do not have time or money to go get certified with the EXO system. Like everything esle train with it before you put it in service though.

                              Curt, you are absolutely wrong in your post and with your incorrect information, you are going to get someone hurt! " Damn near identical" as you put it means that the EXO is clearly not the Grigri! The retrofits that you mention are NOT the only changes Petzl has made to the Grigri. Let me straighten all this out so NO one follows your wrongful statements. The Petzl Grigri is a civilian version of the EXO. This means it is NOT NFPA approved for firefighter rescue or bail out. So from a liabilty standpoint you have made a horrible mistake in your statements. You also fail to mention that the Grigri operates with 10.5 mm rope and not the 7.5 mm that the EXO uses! Using the smaller diameter rope will cause the Grigri to potentially NOT lock up on a descent causing injury or fatality to the firefighter. Additionally FDNY did not test the Grigri to the significance you mention. The EXO was derived from the Grigri and then tested thousands of times. To correct you AGAIN, the rope did NOT fray, the rope jammed between the EXO plate and the actuating cam. This was caused by severe wear on the device after excessive slides and also the rope diameter played an issue in the incident! The technora rope is extremely resistant to heat and abrasiveness. The eyelet was in fact added on to the EXO to help guide the rope into the cam! Other points you failed to mention are: the accelerator handle was changed from plastic to aluminum and made shorter. The cam plate where the rope pinches was beefed up to handle impact loads better and to enhance breaking. The cam on the Grigri is spring loaded where the EXO has no spring loaded tension on the cam where by only applying 1-2 lbs of force, the cam will properly activate and stop a fall. This forum is read by alot of people and making suggestions of using anything other than NFPA approved devices is doing an injustice to the fire service and the brothers and sisters. No matter what device or equipment is bought, training has to be a priority on the proper techniques and deployment procedures of any device. To all readers: do your research on the products you are interested in, and above all make sure you get the proper professional training from someone who knows what they are talking about! be safe......

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