Officer location ...

[Oldrookie611]

Where are you (officer) or your officer located on the attack crew at dwelling fires? Going in with the nozzleman? Conducting a 360 of the structure while 2 firefighters go in to attack the fire? Hump hose at the door?
For us, it is going in with the nozzleman and leaving our 3rd to hump hose, if needed or help with the search.
Just curious!!!

[ACfire1]

He goes in with the nozzleman and a volunteer will hump hose at the door. We lack manpower. 6 people a shift

[fireman4949]

I will do a 360 as the FFs deploy the line(s), then I go in with the nozzleman on the attack line.




Kevin

[len1582]

I go in with my crew. If a FF gets hurt(hole in floor, flashover,etc) while the officer's doing a walk around I feel he didn't do the most important part of his job..getting his crew in and out intact. He'll still be held accountable. In my stations area a 360 isn't practical. In addition to several highrises, there are many row houses that go from corner to corner.

[fireman4949]

I go in with my crew. If a FF gets hurt(hole in floor, flashover,etc) while the officer's doing a walk around I feel he didn't do the most important part of his job..getting his crew in and out intact. He'll still be held accountable. In my stations area a 360 isn't practical. In addition to several highrises, there are many row houses that go from corner to corner.

Len,

Although I think you were feferring to one of the options Oldrookie611 had proposed, please don't misinterpret what I posted.

On a SFD, I will do a 360, or as much of one as possible, as lines are being pulled. There are many situations where seeing more than one, or two sides of the fire building is just not possible. I will not waste a lot of time trying see all sides if access is restricted by obstructions, or distance.

I also will not allow my crew to advance into the structure, either for fire attack, or rescue, if I am not right there with them.




Kevin

[len1582]

OK...I'm with you 49

[BackstepFF]

The officer belongs with the crew...if not, why even have an officer? His primary, sacred responsibility is to see that the men make it back out in one piece. On the engine he belongs with the nozzle team. On the truck he belongs with the FE/inside team; while other positions may operate more or less "independently", they must still communicate and he is still responsible for them.

[tbonetrexler]

The officer belongs with the crew

I can understand this with an officer on a second or third truck in, but if he is first officer on scene, IMO, he should stay outside, take command and coordinate incoming units, until he can pass command to a higher ranking officer.

[AerialTrainer]

IMO, he should stay outside, take command and coordinate incoming units, until he can pass command to a higher ranking officer.

This is normal tactic in Germany to stay outside as officer and make a 360 and see all sides of a building.
If you go inside and on the backside of a buildung a person needs help at a window (and you did not your 360!), you get in trouble...?

[BackstepFF]

Sounds like someone read the “NIMS” manual.

There is a saying, as the first engine goes so goes the fire, meaning that the first few minutes at a fire are critical. What happens in those first minutes will determine if the fire is a “good stop” or a “parking lot” and whether lives are saved or lost.

A “360” is all fine and good on a private dwelling or similar sized structure, but how fast can you do a lap around a strip of taxpayer stores, a row of garden apartment buildings, an H-type tenement, high-rise apartment project, or a building that takes up an entire city block? It is not always possible, that’s why we assign companies to take Side 3.

Taking a command position outside is the function of a chief officer, not a company officer. A battalion chief (or equivalent) should be expected to arrive within a few minutes after the first in units and there should be established procedures so that they know what to do until his arrival. Again, the company officer is the vital link for firefighter survival, which is what we should be concerned with.

__________________________________________________ ____________
Never drank the Kool-Aid

[FFFRED]

I can understand this with an officer on a second or third truck in, but if he is first officer on scene, IMO, he should stay outside, take command and coordinate incoming units, until he can pass command to a higher ranking officer.

Who is supervising his men? As not only are they now searching for the fire and people...but there is no officer to provide safe supervision or assement of the inside or coordination with the Engine Company.

How safe of an operation is this when the officer is as far from safety as possible? This aint the cops...our officers are litterally first in and last out for a reason and that is so we all go home at the end of the tour.

FTM-PTB

[drparasite]

I knew this question sounded familiar. Look over here http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=55708 there are some very sound and logical responses.

[mikeyboy411]

Where they should be.....

I think where the first onscene Officer should be depends on the manpower available.
On a 4 man Engine, there is no reason why the C.O. should be inside with the Fire Attack. That would pass the Command to the Engineer (my position) and I have too many things to be doing to assume Command. To me, it's prettty simple..... the C.O. has full turnouts and BA on (acts as the Initial Standby Crew) the C.O. gets out and performs their 360 check (if capable of doing, sometimes buildings are too large), securing utilitties as they go, then gets back in the cab, rolls up the window, turns of the A.C. if the Engineer didn't and gives assignments on the radio until relieved by the Chief.
On a 2 or 3 man Engine, the C.O. goes in with the Fire Attack and guides the personnel, once the "Standby Crew" is established.
Just how it works in "my world." Pretty simple......

[LaFireEducator]

A lot depends on where you are as to how you answer this question.

In my book, the first arriving officer should (and in our department is required to) stay outside and assume command, even if he arrives on the first due engine. If there is an experienced crew inside, why do they need an officer? Our experienced firefighters are as capable about making decisions about what the fire is doing and what is the best way to approach the situation as most of our officers. The officer, if there is no other officers on-scene needs to be outside where he can read what the fire is doing to the complete structure, not just a limited view of the fire area. He needs to be in a position to make decisons about what type of water supply will be established (which in our area may be choice between ahydrant and a water shuttle, and what type of shuttle), where and how ventilation will be accomplished and if additional resources via mutual aid is needed. He cannot supervise overall safety from inside, and yes while the first 5 minutes may be critical to extingushing the fire, it can also be critical as to the safety outcome of the event.

I understand this may be a different approach than city departments where a chief officer is a garanteed with only a 1-2 minute lapse between the first due and the arrival of the chief. We are not garanteed a chief, except on a day call where the full-time Asst. Chief is in the district, and at times we may not even get a second officer (captain or above) to take command if the initial arriving officer is inside. Most of our senior firefighters (semi-equivilent to a Lt. on many other departments) have as much firefighting time and training as our captains, and quite honestly, are in better shape to operate inside for extended periods. Any experienced firefighter worth his salt should be able to make a reasonably intelligent fire attack, communicate his results to command, co-ordinate the crew, and follow any follow-up instructions given to him.

I guess I just don't understand why an experienced engine company in the busiest fire department in the world needs a "boss". This is not a slam, or meant as one. I guess I just am wondering why a seasoned firefighter, equipped with radio communication to command, needs a supervisor telling him how to do his job, especially if he has done it hundreds of times.

[Weruj1]

I can understand this with an officer on a second or third truck in, but if he is first officer on scene, IMO, he should stay outside, take command and coordinate incoming units, until he can pass command to a higher ranking officer.

this is how it usually works here.......