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    FFFRED
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • FFFRED
    replied
    Originally posted by skvfd5 View Post
    Ok, how about the narrow single lane driveway that we have in the urban interface. We stage equipment all the time, since alot of the driveways end right at the garage with no room to turn around. In our district we have no hydrants so we use tender shuttles all the time to relay water.

    We also use ICS or Nims what ever you want ot call it, do we use every box in the flow chart, NO. The nice thing of ICS is its a tool and you only need to use just the parts you need.
    I think he is refering to why companies stage on the 1st alarm and don't immediately begin what should be basic inital actions taken at every fire. They sit and wait for some Chief or whomever to tell them what their tasks/tools/assignment and positions will be...and it would apear to be completely made up at that time much like a pick-up football game.

    Perhaps before some departments attempt to tackle this NIMS thing or push it on to others they and their citizens would be better served by a fire department that wasn't stuck with 1910s ideology.

    FTM-PTB

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  • skvfd5
    Forum Member

  • skvfd5
    replied
    Originally posted by Firescueguy View Post

    Hey use what works for you...staging units works for large or complex ops but at a typical "room & contents fire", I don't quite understand why you'd be staging apparatus down the block waiting to come in to do their job.
    Ok, how about the narrow single lane driveway that we have in the urban interface. We stage equipment all the time, since alot of the driveways end right at the garage with no room to turn around. In our district we have no hydrants so we use tender shuttles all the time to relay water.

    We also use ICS or Nims what ever you want ot call it, do we use every box in the flow chart, NO. The nice thing of ICS is its a tool and you only need to use just the parts you need.

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  • CAPPYY
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • CAPPYY
    replied
    Our way...

    -First in engine hits hydrant, pulls 3/4 past structure to get an instant view of 3 sides, pulls attack line. Officer looks to rear of building (360)
    -Truck to front of structure.
    -Second in engine lays in at 2nd hydrant, feeds ladder, pulls backup line.
    -Third engine to rear or where needed.

    Then and always... RECEO!

    Risk alot to save alot.(people)
    Risk a little to save property.
    Risk nothing to save what is already lost.
    CAPPYY
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Last edited by CAPPYY; 12-22-2006, 12:47 PM.

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  • LaFireEducator
    Forum Member

  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Being a primarily volunteer department with a large number of geograhic and staffing variables, pre-arrival assignments simply would not work here. Staffing on the apparatus varies from call to call. Number of members responding POV varies from call to call. Order of response from our 5 stations (2nd & 3rd trucks due from Central and 4 satellitte stations are volunteer staffed) varies from call to call.

    First in officer or senior firefighter will determine if structure is safe to enter. First due engine will pull an attack line. This line may perform fire attack on the structure, or under certain conditions, may be used to instead attack any brush exposures, which around here, has the potential to cause a greater issue than a structure fire if allowed to burn. This is especially true with vacants or well envolved occupied that are beyond saving, or in limited manpower situations where trade-offs have to be made. Any other lines will be assigned by command depending on the situation.

    We have no fixed assignment for 2nd, 3rd and 4th due engines as we deal with a variety of water supply situations. Outside the sub-divisions, hydrants are widely spaced or non-existant. Some have flows so low there us no point in using them as tankers can provide more water. They may supply the attack engine. They may lay a line. It may pump a line laid by the attack engine. They may be assigned to function as a tanker. They may be assigned to pump a tanker fill site. Command will decide the type of water supply to be used and assign tasks to each truck.

    Command will determine if ventilation is needed, where it will be performed and who will do it.

    Command determines when and if search will be done, and who will do it.

    Rescue has no assigned tasks and functions as a manpower pool. They report to staging for assignment.

    Responding tanker will always pull up in the area of attack engine and provide water.

    Command runs the show here. Command (or Operations) makes all tactical decisions and sets all the priorities based on the location of the fire, water supply, weather (dry brush fire weather as an example), staffing and availaable mutual aid. There are simply too many variables here to have pre-set assignments. This is not micro-management. it's simply determining what tasks are needed and what tasks are not needed for each incident, and choosing the best resources for each task.

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  • mikeyboy411
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Organize.....

    Hey say what you want about how Management decides to Manage the Department..... Ultimately, my job is to spot my Engine, charge the Attack Line, secure my own Water Source and start our PAR (Personnel Accountability Roster). It's not to second guess..... unless safety is jeopardized.

    The original question was how do Departments deploy their resources, if you don't like how we operate..... you're entitled to your opinion that's why so many men and women gave their lives, so that we can all have Freedoms.

    The Property You Are So Willing To Let Burn Is Some Families Photos Of Loved Ones And Items Made Or Handed Down Thru The Generations. Maybe Even Their Pets. These Things Cant Be Replaced But Can Be Saved By A Few Brave Men And Women Willing To Push It To The Limits.

    This Ain't A Job...it's A Calling!
    I agree however, are you willing to place your personnel in a losing position and trade a FF or yourself for that person's "stuff." I have been on the receiving side of this situation...... when I was a kid we lost our house to a fire, but I personally found out that "material stuff" is replaceable...... however, Family Members are not able to be replaced. We still say thank you to the guys that came that night, now they're my colleagues...... not just extraordinary men.

    There is nothing wrong with Aggressive Fire Attack, but like I've been stressing here, just do it safely.......

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  • CAPPYY
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • CAPPYY
    replied
    Everytime We Go To An Emergency There Is The Chance Of Injury Or Death. This Is A Risky Business We Are In And We Must Do What We Can To Lower Those Risks.

    The Fire Service Was Developed For The Purpose Of Saving Lives And Property. Our Original Job Was To Limit The Damages That Insurance Companies Had To Pay Due To Entire Towns Burning To The Ground. Insurance Companies Paid To Startup Fire Depts Just For This Purpose. It Was Cheaper To Build A Fire Dept Than To Pay For A Burned City Or Town.

    The Property You Are So Willing To Let Burn Is Some Families Photos Of Loved Ones And Items Made Or Handed Down Thru The Generations. Maybe Even Their Pets. These Things Cant Be Replaced But Can Be Saved By A Few Brave Men And Women Willing To Push It To The Limits.

    This Ain't A Job...it's A Calling!

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  • ChicagoFF
    Forum Member

  • ChicagoFF
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy View Post
    As far as my supposed "callous, uncaring attitude" you are far from being wrong. What are we always taught is the primary responsibility of all personnel involved in an Emergency? Safety..... First, last and always. Running in to save a few walls is ridiculous and getting FFs injured or killed is never excusable..... I realize that there are conditions outside of our control that happen and injuries or death result, but if there is a possibility that one of us could not go home then I say let it burn. Fire Insurance is going to cover the building, contents (within reason) and most services rendered.
    Ahhhhh, now I understand your interest in standing outside for as long as possible "organizing" your fire attack. "Organize" long enough and you don't have to go in and no one can call you a coward, after all, you were seen outside "doing something". Gotcha. That's just plain embarassing. That is most certainly not what we were taught here.

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  • mikeyboy411
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Rebuttal......

    Now you think you have "discovered" something because you want to overcomplicate a very easy process? Gimme a break. And just because you have the callous, uncaring attitude that several rooms of someones personal belongings (probably all they own on earth now) are not worth saving, maybe it's you that needs to reexamine how your department operates and the culture your department has fostered which gives you the right to let somones property go up in smoke because you don't feel like getting in there like you should. Progressive? Maybe. Wrong, for sure.
    ChicagoFF who has stated that we have "discovered" something.....? The ICS (Incident Command System) has been around longer than the organized Fire Service has. If somebody does research we find that even in the days of the Bible a Command System was used...... Think I'm wrong, review any of the battles and you will see it in use. Battle was entered in a somewhat organized way, with the strong in the front and the weaker to the rear..... or vise-versa.

    As far as my supposed "callous, uncaring attitude" you are far from being wrong. What are we always taught is the primary responsibility of all personnel involved in an Emergency? Safety..... First, last and always. Running in to save a few walls is ridiculous and getting FFs injured or killed is never excusable..... I realize that there are conditions outside of our control that happen and injuries or death result, but if there is a possibility that one of us could not go home then I say let it burn. Fire Insurance is going to cover the building, contents (within reason) and most services rendered.

    Read any of my posts or talk to me and I will never say don't ever go Interior. I will say go Interior when the risk vs. gain has a low risk and a high gain, or even if it is an even exchange but provide for more Safety to help the curve go our way.

    As far as how my Department operates, we are Aggressive in Fire Attack/Ventilation but all is based on the Safety of our personnel first. If this is wrong, then we'll be wrong..... but all of our personnel will live to fight another day.

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  • ChicagoFF
    Forum Member

  • ChicagoFF
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Now I never made a comment that one system of Command is superior to another. What I did type is that we all should look at each Command System and use what works best for us, however we should also have a System that we all are familiar with. That way when another disaster or catastrophe happens we all automatically know how to speak to each other and have some common language and a common name or task for assignments. Now, this is probably never gonna happen because we all wanna do what we want, but how about thinking about whats best for who we are serving, the Civilian (or Customer). Is it best to have to do some on scene training to describe what a 10..... is or to have a System already in place, so that when we all get on scene we get our assignment(s) and we can go directly to work?
    But, in reality, you will never work in Chicago and I will never work in wherever it is you are from. Bottom line - I don't need to know how you do things and you don't need to understand how we do things. On the rare occations we need help in the city we call MABAS, an organized, progressive, system of support here in IL. When the suburbs come in they are handed a radio and expected to do their job, cover runs and put out fires. They don't seem to have any trouble at all even though they use different systems and equipment and tactics at home. It's really not that tough.
    I understand that it's not popular to sit here or type here that we all need to change how we currently operate but I'm gonna type it. How I justify this comment, why are we still injuring or killing FFs by sending them into a FS that is well involved or even 3/4 involved (congratulations, you saved a few rooms that the occupant can't live in anyways) when there is no Life Threat/Danger or how is it that so many Units collide while still responding to the scene (we've all got radios, Engine...... on your left/right, etc.)? Ever see what happens 2 weeks later, the Insurance Company comes in and Bulldozers the lot clean or takes it down to the foundation. I'm not saying that we should stand outside and twittle our thumbs, just think about what we are doing and be able to justify why we are doing it (other than, because that's the way we've always done it). In my honest opinion, saying "That's the way we've always done it" shows a lack of true understanding why your Department operates that/this way. We should all be able to explain why we function and explain how we do and why that we operate a certain way.
    We do it our way because we've always done it that way. And thats because our way works and has been evolving and working longer than California has been a state. Now you think you have "discovered" something because you want to overcomplicate a very easy process? Gimme a break. And just because you have the callous, uncaring attitude that several rooms of someones personal belongings (probably all they own on earth now) are not worth saving, maybe it's you that needs to reexamine how your department operates and the culture your department has fostered which gives you the right to let somones property go up in smoke because you don't feel like getting in there like you should. Progressive? Maybe. Wrong, for sure.

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  • mikeyboy411
    MembersZone Subscriber

  • mikeyboy
    replied
    Some confusion.....

    I must have miss understood the actual purpose of this thread. Our Chiefs don't deploy tasks they deploy positions/resources. Example: Engine 1, take the primary position (they know they are on Fire Attack). The I.C. doesn't say take an Attack Line in and so on........ We deploy units..... The units know what they are doing by their placement and each position has PDAs that are flexible. All our C.O. says is "do what you do." At least on our crew, that's how it works.

    Chicago FF, we run a lot more Haz Mat calls then most of our surrounding Departments do, so we came up with a system that also works for them. One system, that works for most types of calls..... what a concept. I know it's progressive, but we should also be progressive in our thinking and actions.
    I was always taught to deploy resources and assign tasks, if not given prior to arriving on scene by PDAs or directly given on the radio. Just like in school, there are reading assignments..... not reading deployments........ The book was deployed and the assignment was reading the book. LOL

    Now I never made a comment that one system of Command is superior to another. What I did type is that we all should look at each Command System and use what works best for us, however we should also have a System that we all are familiar with. That way when another disaster or catastrophe happens we all automatically know how to speak to each other and have some common language and a common name or task for assignments. Now, this is probably never gonna happen because we all wanna do what we want, but how about thinking about whats best for who we are serving, the Civilian (or Customer). Is it best to have to do some on scene training to describe what a 10..... is or to have a System already in place, so that when we all get on scene we get our assignment(s) and we can go directly to work?

    I understand that it's not popular to sit here or type here that we all need to change how we currently operate but I'm gonna type it. How I justify this comment, why are we still injuring or killing FFs by sending them into a FS that is well involved or even 3/4 involved (congratulations, you saved a few rooms that the occupant can't live in anyways) when there is no Life Threat/Danger or how is it that so many Units collide while still responding to the scene (we've all got radios, Engine...... on your left/right, etc.)? Ever see what happens 2 weeks later, the Insurance Company comes in and Bulldozers the lot clean or takes it down to the foundation. I'm not saying that we should stand outside and twittle our thumbs, just think about what we are doing and be able to justify why we are doing it (other than, because that's the way we've always done it). In my honest opinion, saying "That's the way we've always done it" shows a lack of true understanding why your Department operates that/this way. We should all be able to explain why we function and explain how we do and why that we operate a certain way.

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  • Firescueguy
    Forum Member

  • Firescueguy
    replied
    There was a reference made by MikeyBoy that using this type of approach works well as having multiple units arriving simultaneously can "overwhelm" the IC. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that THE JOB of the IC...to COMMAND & MANAGE multiple units on the fireground? While I realize it can be overwhelming sometimes when you have multiple things coming at you at breakneck speed, my thought is that maybe you need more trained, experienced officers commanding the operation.

    Not trying to start a ****ing match or to rain on your dept. but that statement just seems a bit odd, particularly for a PROFESSIONAL fire dept.

    Most depts. I know of (career or volunteer) have pre-determined unit assignments to some extent...you may run into a situation where a company is told what function they will handle (ex. local volly dept. that runs 3 first due rescue engines will have the IC advise the unit if they will operate as an engine or a truck) but once told, they know their job & what's expected of them in that capacity.

    Unfortunately, you do hear depts. all the time giving their units ridiculous orders that should be common sense..."stretch an 1 3/4 to the front door, mask up & make entry"....well, what else would the engine do??? Pull a booster, tie a bandana around their face & spray a fog stream through the window???!!! Well, maybe some depts. actually would...

    Hey use what works for you...staging units works for large or complex ops but at a typical "room & contents fire", I don't quite understand why you'd be staging apparatus down the block waiting to come in to do their job.

    Just my 2 cents...Stay Safe..."Engine 1, I need your driver to step on the gas pedal, apply the brake when approaching the intersection, Capt. I need you to blow the siren & ring the bell, tell the FF's in the cab to put their arms through the straps of their SCBA & tighten them"....com' on, this ain't rocket science...

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  • fireman1075
    Forum Member

  • fireman1075
    replied
    Originally posted by FFFRED
    30 years of progressivism unhampered by 140 years of tradition and experience, I guess. Funny how we should have to change to your ICS or whatever but when you are asked to change...you are as beholden to your operations as we are to ours. FTM-PTB
    "30 years of progressivism unhampered by 140 years of tradition and experience" This is at least the quote of the week. I'm all for changing and improving operations. But I have seen cultures that want change just for the sake of change. There are many departments that have turned into "part-time" fire departments. Hell some have even go as far as changing their names from "fire department" to something trendy like "blah blah emergency services."

    I think this quote deserves its own thread because I can go on and on about the culture of progressivism.
    fireman1075
    Forum Member
    Last edited by fireman1075; 11-22-2006, 12:50 PM.

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  • fireman1075
    Forum Member

  • fireman1075
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy
    After working in incidents where everybody comes in at once, and having been the I.C. in this type of environment can become overwhelming very quick. All our units have to say is that they are "Onscene, staging at _______." It gives the I.C. a few seconds to think about where he wants that unit to operate.

    Are you talking about structure fires? I guess I can see how this might work at wildland but woundn't the IC want everyone to operate at the fire building or close proximity during a structure fire?

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  • fireman1075
    Forum Member

  • fireman1075
    replied
    [QUOTE=mikeyboy]Hey there,
    Um......... yeah, deep breath in............ Both of my Departments are Career/Professional Departments.........

    Lemme run this by you...... It's the middle of the night, fire in the middle house of the cul-de-sac, the first Engine pulls up and takes the #1 spot since the Truck can easily work over the Engine, no other Fire Department vehicles are able to make it down the street due to Civilian vehicles being in the way...... Do you have all the units just come on down the road and create a bigger mess? Here's what we do, the Chief or P.D. goes to the houses and has the Home Owners move the vehicles. Don't think this has happened, trust me...... it has. Under your system, the road would be so plugged-up with vehicles that it would probably take 4X as long to move all the vehicles. By staging outta the area (I'm talking usually down the road at an intersection) the first onscene C.O. can do their 360, make any adjustments that are needed and while that is being done, the Fire Attack is well underway. If another unit is needed on the "C" side of the fire for an Exposure then we are in position to adjust our response and get a unit over there.[QUOTE]

    I think you are talking about parking rigs instead of deployment. I'm really intrigued by this system. Do your people sit on the rigs until they are told what to do by a chief? I'm not trying to be a smart allelic I'm just curious how this is better than predetermined deployment by order of arrival with a good set of SOP's. Please help my understand because I'm just not seeing it.
    fireman1075
    Forum Member
    Last edited by fireman1075; 11-21-2006, 09:48 PM.

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  • ChicagoFF
    Forum Member

  • ChicagoFF
    replied
    Originally posted by mikeyboy
    It may seem odd, however our First Due Engines are usually right on top of each other, the last fire we had...... almost literally, since they almost collided at the intersection about 2 blocks from the house. Our First Due Truck is usually right on the heels of the First Due Engines..... So within about a minute we have 2 Engines, Truck and Chief onscene at the same time. This system helps us start the initial scene organization.
    It doesnt seem odd at all. Our still districts are measured in square blocks, not square miles. For a fire you are getting two engines and two trucks and unless the fire is right next to your firehouse, it's going to be a tight race as to who gets there first. Everyone arrives close together and everyone knows exactly where to go, wether to pull down the street or let the truck in first and back down or whatever the case may be as determined by the order of arrival. No confussion and no question as to where you are supposed to be. If the chief arrives last, he arrives at a scene where he knows where everyone is and what everyone is working on. He is free to change it as he sees fit, but he knows that on arrival he can depend on everything getting underway without him having to worry about holding everyones hand.

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