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  • Fireground Deployment

    I am looking for some insight into deployment of resources on the fireground.

    What is the advantage of having only the first due Engine proceed directly to the scene and have all other companies (including the truck) stage at a confirmed working fire? Why wait to be told to bring in a supply line to the first due engine? Why wait to be assigned RIT? Why wait for ventilation? These are all critical tasks. This seems to me to be a waist of some very critical time. Do many cities operate this way? What is wrong with having predesignated orders based on type and arrival of apparatus.

    Please shed some light on this for me

    PTB

  • #2
    Originally posted by 10EngineLt
    I am looking for some insight into deployment of resources on the fireground.

    What is the advantage of having only the first due Engine proceed directly to the scene and have all other companies (including the truck) stage at a confirmed working fire? Why wait to be told to bring in a supply line to the first due engine? Why wait to be assigned RIT? Why wait for ventilation? These are all critical tasks. This seems to me to be a waist of some very critical time. Do many cities operate this way? What is wrong with having predesignated orders based on type and arrival of apparatus.

    Please shed some light on this for me

    PTB
    I really don't think anyone operates like that. Do you have any specific examples?
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah - we stage on investigations, alarms, etc. - but if there's a worker I know if I'm first in engine I'm attacking on tank water, second in I'm laying a supply unless the first in has a hydrant really close, and third in stretches a back-up line.

      Like ChiFF said - do you know of someone that operates like this?
      "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 10EngineLt
        I am looking for some insight into deployment of resources on the fireground.

        What is the advantage of having only the first due Engine proceed directly to the scene and have all other companies (including the truck) stage at a confirmed working fire? Why wait to be told to bring in a supply line to the first due engine? Why wait to be assigned RIT? Why wait for ventilation? These are all critical tasks. This seems to me to be a waist of some very critical time. Do many cities operate this way? What is wrong with having predesignated orders based on type and arrival of apparatus.

        Please shed some light on this for me

        PTB

        Uh.....does your dept operate like that??????
        IACOJ Member

        Comment


        • #5
          Fireground deployment

          Actually they do and they have for several years...It seems very inefficient and unsafe to me and many others. I can't think of any other department that operates like this. If there is I'd like to know the history behind doing things this way. Are there any publications that support this? Having only the first due engine go to work, then having the IC assign tasks as he sees fit just doesn't seem right. Critical tasks do not get done in a timely fashion, if they get done at all.

          Comment


          • #6
            limited access streets

            The only reason for operating that way would be limited access streets such as dead end and cul de sacs. The first engine MUST leave room for the truck.

            Comment


            • #7
              No, very few parts of the city are limited access. Only the newest parts have cul de sacs, very few dead ends.

              I can't agree with you more...you MUST leave room for the truck...which is a big problem with the way we deploy. By the time the IC assignes the truck, there is no room left. In fact its usually left down the block.

              Comment


              • #8
                We have a neighbor with a micromanaging chief, so much so that he orders every last command and every last detail to his folks that arrive on scene, as if they're not capable of making their own decisions based on SOGs.

                Perhaps this is the case with your department?

                Honestly - if you arrive on scene in our department, and get on the radio and ask the IC, "Where do you want us?" - you're going to get reamed, unless it is an exceedingly unique situation...
                "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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                • #9
                  WOW!! Someone is gonna get hurt or worse. Crews should know their task functions and be allowed to complete them. I see a lot of micromanaging in my dept and some of my Batt Chiefs think the trucks should be down the street. I just shake my head!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Its my understanding that we used to operate with predesignated assignments. And this is a result of us implementing ICS in the early 80's. Did the old ICS ever recommend anything like this?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ICS certainly does advocate staging additional resources, but that is really meant for large and unweildy responses where you may have MA companies, inter-agency, or redundant units responding.

                      On a two-three truck response there is little need to stage, and as mentioned, it is a little detrimental on a true worker.

                      I wonder if your dept has had any incidents in the past where an automatic response has been fudged up, resulting in a delay/failure, and this was a muddled attempt to fix the problem?

                      We train our guys to work both ways. If the Chief or Duty Officer makes the scene first, and the nature of the emergency is not evident (i.e. nothing showing), he may ask the units to stage, or he may give specific assignments based on the information available. Most often though, we encourage the units to place themselves accordingly for the building and standard assignments, and wait for the IC/Company Officer to determine the nature of the emergency before deploying bodies.
                      Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

                      IACOJ

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In our dept., all responding units to an incident have pre-assigned tactical duty assignments and responsibilities (per SOP's), based upon the type situation at hand, i.e. SFD, MFD, high-rise, etc.

                        All first alarm units will implement their respective duty assignments without needing to be spoon-fed every detail by the IC. Modifications, or adjustments to the assignments however, may be made by the IC as he sees fit, but we all have a very good idea of what our assignments will likely be before we ever arrive on the scene.

                        Level II staging of units is normally used only for 2nd alarm(+) companies.

                        Level II staging for first alarm companies, IMHO, would be a HUGE waste of time and resources that would have nothing but negative effects on the incident. Not to mention the added PITA it would be for the initial IC.




                        Kevin
                        Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
                        IAFF Local 2339
                        K of C 4th Degree
                        "LEATHER FOREVER"
                        Member I.A.C.O.J.
                        http://www.tfdfire.com/
                        "Fir na tine"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Our orders specify what every company on the first alarm is supposed to do - thats four engines, two trucks, a rescue squad and battalion chief. 90 percent of our fires can be handled with the chief saying little or nothing...it's amazing how they still manage to find so much to say.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            How we operate.........

                            At both of my Departments we are going to this system..... The justification is that it allows the first onscene Engine or Chief, to perform their 360 degree check and then deploy the resources as they are needed.
                            At my career Department, it works really well because of our Truck and small sized streets. We have some streets that are barely wide enough to fit 2 passenger cars side by side..... yet alone our Truck. We also have P.D.A.s that are being developed as I type this...... I was tasked with this project.
                            There are numerous Departments that operate this way in So. California and it works for them. Another advantage is that it forces those Captains that get spinnin' like a top (every Department has 'em) to stop and take a deep breath......
                            After working in incidents where everybody comes in at once, and having been the I.C. in this type of environment can become overwhelming very quick. All our units have to say is that they are "Onscene, staging at _______." It gives the I.C. a few seconds to think about where he wants that unit to operate. This works huge on Haz-Mat incidents.
                            I encourage any Department to at least try this...... if it don't work then go back to the other way. No harm, no foul.
                            "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

                            Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

                            Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by npfd801
                              We have a neighbor with a micromanaging chief, so much so that he orders every last command and every last detail to his folks that arrive on scene, as if they're not capable of making their own decisions based on SOGs.

                              Perhaps this is the case with your department?
                              That was going to be my guess. Sounds like someone or a couple of someones wants everyone on the shift to know that they are in charge.

                              Good luck.
                              RK
                              cell #901-494-9437

                              Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                              "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                              Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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