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N.F.S.I.M.S -VS- I.C (Brunacini Way)

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  • You didn't answer the question. Did you find any of the material you object to actually in NIMS?

    Originally posted by nyckftbl
    Just because you find it simple doesnt mean our system, that has worked for 141 years, is any more complicated, or needs revising.
    Words of wisdom from your 7 long years of emergency service experience?

    Like the sig says, 141 years of tradition unhampered by progress...

    When you actually understand what NIMS is and what it isn't, you'll be better able to debate it more effectively one way or the other. Until you know something about it, you can't very well put forward an argument against it.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
    sigpic
    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

    Comment


    • What

      Deputy Marshal,

      Im might be confused this is what Im learning. National Fire Service Incident Management System Consortium. If this is not NIMS then Im sorry then will some one here explain to me what in the hell Im learning then. Because it does talk about Fast Attack and they did change the Tactical prioities from 3 to 4. And if im still wrong then what is this crap Im learning and if it is NIMS then look at how much different from what you learned from what I have?
      Pretty scary if we had to help one another out at a call if it is NIMS. I sure as hell dint make this stuff up.
      Help a guy out here is it NIMS or not.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JAFA62
        Im might be confused this is what Im learning. National Fire Service Incident Management System Consortium. If this is not NIMS then Im sorry then will some one here explain to me what in the hell Im learning then.
        No, NFSIMS is not "NIMS". "NIMS" is the federally adopted ICS, the National Incident Management System, used by every federal response agency and tied to numerous federal grants. It addresses only the traditional ICS functions and has nothing to do with tactics. (If you're familiar with the ICS used by the National Fire Acdemy for the last 18 years or so, you'll have no trouble recognizing NIMS.)

        The NFSIMS Consortium undoubtedly has major input into NIMS, but it isn't their "product." Their product is a whole series of "Procedures Guides" that address tactics the way the Consortium thinks that they should be addressed. Those guides should not be confused with NIMS.

        Originally posted by JAFA62
        Help a guy out here is it NIMS or not.
        Nope. Take some time and take the online FEMA NIMS courses, IS-100 & IS-200. They'll give you a good idea exactly what NIMS is about and why the federal government is so strongly encouraging everyone to adopt it as a national standard for command/management framework.
        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
        sigpic
        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DeputyMarshal
          You didn't answer the question. Did you find any of the material you object to actually in NIMS?



          Words of wisdom from your 7 long years of emergency service experience?

          Like the sig says, 141 years of tradition unhampered by progress...

          When you actually understand what NIMS is and what it isn't, you'll be better able to debate it more effectively one way or the other. Until you know something about it, you can't very well put forward an argument against it.
          Ahhh, judging a book by its cover, I see. So because you have more time than me, you automatically know everything, right? I know exactly what NIMS is, please dont be so naive, and insulting. Just because I dont agree with it, doesnt mean I dont understand it. All I said what, what you view as "progress", just because YOU think it is, doesnt make it so, God. You've shown a lot of class on these threads the last few days. And a chaplain at that, too. hmmmm....

          You dont know our system, yet you are trying your damndest to put up an argument against it. A bit hypocritical, if you ask me.
          Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by nyckftbl
            Ahhh, judging a book by its cover, I see. So because you have more time than me, you automatically know everything, right?
            No, actually I judged you based on your use of the absurd "we've always done it that way" argument. Your lack of experience was only a supporting factor.

            Originally posted by nyckftbl
            You dont know our system, yet you are trying your damndest to put up an argument against it. A bit hypocritical, if you ask me.
            And exactly what system would that be? (When have I argued against it, BTW?)

            You don't state your location in your profile but ... Nevermind. Burbs in NY.
            DeputyMarshal
            Forum Member
            Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 11-25-2006, 09:45 PM.
            "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
            sigpic
            The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DeputyMarshal
              No, actually I judged you based on your use of the absurd "we've always done it that way" argument. Your lack of experience was only a supporting factor.

              Lack of experience, huh? Like I said, judging a book by its cover. I would have figured a chaplain would have been above that kind of childish behavior. But its very clear that you are hard headed, and arent willing to see two sides of an argument without judging, even though I have taken all those ridiculous waste of time classes.
              But of course, you never asked if I had, you just assumed I didnt. Typical.
              Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeputyMarshal

                And exactly what system would that be? (When have I argued against it, BTW?)

                You don't state your location in your profile but ... Nevermind. Burbs in NY.

                And because you think Im from the suburbs of NY, that I dont know anything. Interesting. Failed reading comprehension in high school? The same system that Fred and MY other brothers have been speaking of for the last 6 pages. BMA
                Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DeputyMarshal
                  Words of wisdom from your 7 long years of emergency service experience?
                  As opposed to your 25 in small town America? And we should all be impressed why? You really need to stop taking yourself so seriously.
                  I am a complacent liability to the fire service

                  Comment


                  • Lets make the wheel an Octagon

                    Eh Deputy..Im from Canada FEMA means notta to me. So im not learning NIMS you say but Im learning the Tatics. Ive only got 6yrs in the fire service and last time I looked the biggest playbook on the fire ground would be its Tatics. And not to take away from the course I will take it.
                    Just to show Im not all one sided. However Im tired of guys telling the FDNY men and women that they could learn a new thing or two. I was not part of the WTC (god Bless them) but those firefighters did their job and paid dearly for it. And Im sure NIMS, TIMS, or what everelse they want to throw at them or us would have changed that day. I will always listen to advise from the player in the arena then the fan with a EA sports playbook.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JAFA62
                      Eh Deputy..Im from Canada FEMA means notta to me.
                      Yeah, I realize that. The reference was more about why NIMS is such a hot topic of discussion this side of the border.
                      "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                      sigpic
                      The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by nyckftbl
                        And because you think Im from the suburbs of NY, that I dont know anything.
                        No, because you're self-dentified as from the burbs of NY it's probable that you're infected with the FDNY "our way is the only way" & "if it wasn't invented here it can't possibly be any good" mentality. Hence, "Nevermind."

                        Originally posted by nyckftbl
                        Interesting. Failed reading comprehension in high school?
                        No. Nor in college nor anytime afterwards. You?

                        Originally posted by nyckftbl
                        The same system that Fred and MY other brothers have been speaking of for the last 6 pages.
                        I had forgotten you were with Fred and was just looking at the post where you identified yourself as a TO in a "small suburban department in NY." So sue me.
                        "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"
                        sigpic
                        The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeputyMarshal
                          No, because you're self-dentified as from the burbs of NY it's probable that you're infected with the FDNY "our way is the only way" & "if it wasn't invented here it can't possibly be any good" mentality. Hence, "Nevermind."



                          No. Nor in college nor anytime afterwards. You?



                          I had forgotten you were with Fred and was just looking at the post where you identified yourself as a TO in a "small suburban department in NY." So sue me.
                          Seems to me you have a giant chip on your shoulder concerning the FDNY. If thats the case, forgive me for using common sense in our debate.

                          The FDNY way is the only way. You are wrong. Everyone must follow.

                          Like I said, as you have asked of other people, I have taken the classes. I happen to find that the way my little area of the world does things works better. That doesnt mean I didnt learn anything, or am not giving something a chance because of an "FDNY mentality". You were the one here making false assumptions and ridiculous remarks about time OTJ, and your only response was a ridiculous comment about the FDNY, and you saying "so sue me".
                          nyckftbl
                          Forum Member
                          Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-25-2006, 10:50 PM.
                          Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

                          Comment


                          • Hey how do you get the smily faces in your text.. With those I could really get my point across. But it wouldnt matter any way.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeputyMarshal
                              You didn't answer the question. Did you find any of the material you object to actually in NIMS?
                              You haven't answered any of our questions throughout this entire discussion. You only make vague generalizations and claims that are about as clear as mud. Such as...
                              Originally posted by Deputy Marshall
                              And I would presume that Engine Co. 47 should generally be called Engine Co. 47.
                              Words like "presume" and "generally" make me and others think you really don't have a good grasp on what you are talking about.

                              And according to NIMS, IMS, ICS, FIRESCOPE or whatever nonsense you hail as the next comming of christ we are not to call Engine Co. 47 by that name..we are to use "task" or "geographic" designations to identify them. Which in itself brings to question the thought behind this system in that a company could perform the same task at two different fires and have completely different identification as was evidenced by our disccusions with the brothers from the left coast.

                              Lets also not forget that you are advocating a system that is structured only up to class IS-200...there is suppose to be a 300,400, 500? No?

                              100 and 200 are very basic and to most just describe basic principles of command that are already established in places like Chicago, FDNY, Military...etc. Much of those two specific self taught classes deals with extremely basic concepts and giving terms and structure to concepts and policies that already exist and are covered much more thoroughly in our own operational manuals.

                              Words of wisdom from your 7 long years of emergency service experience?
                              I'm willing to bet his 7 could very well have been better spent and more productive than any amount of years in your little suburb. You really have nothing else to add other than to attack this guys years on the job?

                              Like the sig says, 141 years of tradition unhampered by progress...
                              It is ignorant dopes like you who think the job began the day they got hired...as I clearly stated before...those 141+ years have been a hard 141 for us... on average 8 men a year have died....100,000s have been injured. Most of what we know didn't come from "breakout sessions" in some clown committee of career paper pushers developing a system to correct their depts poor disipline and obvious lack of experince in many cases. It came from literally millions of fires and emergencies and evolved over time...it wasn't created overnight by someone with a MBA and a thesarus...it was developed to correct problems that actually occur on the fireground...not creating solutions for non-existant issues.

                              Being "Progressive" isn't changing for the sake of change...which is all you have so far convinced us of in your directionless, overly vague arguments and statements.

                              When you actually understand what NIMS is and what it isn't, you'll be better able to debate it more effectively one way or the other. Until you know something about it, you can't very well put forward an argument against it.
                              You have yet to put forth an arguement as to why it is supperior to our system..Chicago's, or anyone elses on here. We aren't the ones selling this garbage...you are, therefore the burden is on you to explain what shortcommings our systems have and why your system is far supperior to ours and what problems it aims to correct.

                              FTM-PTB
                              FFFRED
                              MembersZone Subscriber
                              Last edited by FFFRED; 11-26-2006, 12:15 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Sorry I'm late, first-off: Deputy and NYkftbl go to your time out corners, you are acting like little, Charles-Union-Nora-Tom-Sam's.

                                The ICS that is being force fed to the nation has a purpose and a place, structural firefighting in NYC is not the place. FDNY is not the place to impose change just for the sake of change or compliance based on the off chance of Mutual aid interaction. I feel comfortable stating that based on personal experience, not some ICS propaganda or an attitude of "we always did it this way." When FDNY units operate outside of NYC (other than 9/11 there has been no need to request mutual aid into NYC) a modified all hands or 2nd alarm assignment is sent, this includes engines and trucks, a satellite unit for water and foam supply, a fast truck, battalion chiefs, a deputy chief and a staff level chief (Command Chief - Citiwide tour commander or boro commander of the boro bordering the incident) a field comm unit and special units only of specifically requested. I have operated at fires and emergencies in Westchester County and we were all on the same page, the Command Chief worked hand in hand with the IC and our operations were no different than if we were on our home field. I also operated for 2 weeks in New Orleans where the federal model was used and things went well because firefighters (from NYC, Illinois, Maryland, and all over) made things work, not because of some organizational chart.
                                As for the get on board mentality...as was previously stated, the NIMS program is tied into federal grant money, that alone is the reason for the vast majority of the "training" it is not that departments agree with the concept or wish to use it, (most of the people I've spoken to either copied someone else's answers or someone else just did it for them) it is to get money to stay in the fire business.

                                Comment

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