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N.F.S.I.M.S -VS- I.C (Brunacini Way)

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  • Damn, will this thing not die?

    Guys, really listen to FFFred and read the whole post.


    NIMS was not made to deal with FDNY, CFD etc these are departments that have good workable day to day systems (not saying I buy into the idea it wouldn't work, but why fix what ain't broke). NIMS is really intended for the many planless, commandless departments out there, that don't see much action. Leave the FDNY guys alone, once everybody else is on one page (like that will happen) then you can debate bringing them into NIMS.


    I'm kinda tired of the 140 year thing too, I mean 140 years ago FDNY ran horse drawn equipment and it would be another 20 years before we started arguing about using steamers instead of hand powered pumpers.

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    • Originally posted by NonSurfinCaFF View Post
      Damn, will this thing not die?
      NIMS was not made to deal with FDNY, CFD etc these are departments that have good workable day to day systems (not saying I buy into the idea it wouldn't work, but why fix what ain't broke). NIMS is really intended for the many planless, commandless departments out there, that don't see much action.
      I have found some interesting discussion on this thread.

      Some of the conflict seems to be in the differences between ICS (note capitol letters) and ics (lower case). ICS, as pushed by DHS/FEMA is an established program that has limited application and outright conflict in many places. The lower case ics is any local version of command. Cities that have ther own ics pretty much follow the ideas of ICS with local variations to fit the resources and needs of the fire department.

      ICS and ics in a nutshell:
      Everyone knows who is in charge.
      Multiple agencies at an incident work together.
      We all know what we need to accomplish and how to do it.
      If what we are doing does not work, make corrections.
      Communictation works both up and down the chain of command.
      You answer to one supervisor.
      Call for addition resouces before you need them.

      Do we really need multiple day classes to do this? I know many cities that can do this without forms, vests, flow charts, and added layers of managment.

      Unfortunately, NIMS is a requirement of all agencies, not just those interested in inter-state deployment or those that do not have a workable command system. This is where the problem lies. FDNY has an effecient incident command system-it works. My small FD also has an incident command system that works for us. 20+ years ago, the only officer on scene of a structure fire here had a good chance of being the hydrant man and there was a lot of free lancing. Today we now have a minimum of three officers responding on structure fires with all personnel knowing their initial assignments before arrival. We follow the steps of ICS but it is modified to fit our resources and needs.

      Why should anyone change how they operate because of fire departments that do not have any command system in place?
      Last edited by KenNFD1219; 12-16-2006, 10:59 AM.
      -------------------
      "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
      -----------------------------------------------
      Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

      Comment


      • Posted by KenNFD1219
        Do we really need multiple day classes to do this? I know many cities that can do this without forms, vests, flow charts, and added layers of managment.
        We all know it can be done with out it, but think of the implications....

        Galls would lose money selling the vests, portable command boards, etc.

        Some big buck Congressional contributor's son might actually go out and get a real job instead of feeding at the FEMA trough.

        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

        Comment


        • We don't use the vests, and while I've seen them stuffed away in the back of a few chief's buggys I really don't recall seeing them used.

          The Federal Type 1 & 2 Teams just have hats and / or name tags with thier position.

          Comment


          • engineer2000

            It is obvious to me that you also work in the state of Cali.....

            In my state ICS is adopted for any emergency other than an medical aid (Fire, Police, EMS, Etc use it). I don't know much about NIMS other than it is similiar to ICS. I guess by reading some of the posts. You can do it on line. Kind of cheesy. Here ICS classes are 160 hrs. long classroom and scenarios. Broken over four different classes. Fire Command 1-A, 1-B and ICS 200 & 300. State fire certified classes.
            Don't forget about Command 1C, it's a great class with lots of information. I would recommend taking it over a two week period; one week is very concentrated.

            My question to our Brothers and Sisters on the "Right Coast" is are your systems able to include Law Enforcement if a Joint Command is needed? Or what about the local Environmental Health Department, how do you all plug them into your system? Here, they can be plugged in as a Technical Specialist if you want them there.

            As I read these posts once again, I have realized a few things. The systems designed by FDNY, CFD and other Departments have the foundation of the ICS built into them. They have a different name for it, that is all....... Having been exposed to the ICS for over 11 years now I personally like the fact that if I go to another City, County or State there is a system that we all are able to work with and work under, without an OTJ Training Session. If you don't ever venture out of your lil' part of the world then fine, if you do then having a system that all Departments can work under is needed.
            "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

            Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

            Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mikeyboy View Post
              My question to our Brothers and Sisters on the "Right Coast" is are your systems able to include Law Enforcement if a Joint Command is needed? Or what about the local Environmental Health Department, how do you all plug them into your system? Here, they can be plugged in as a Technical Specialist if you want them there.
              160 hours for incident command training? No thanks, I think I'd rather watch paint dry.

              We have a local emergency planning committee that meets several times per year. Our local committee wrote the local emergency operation plan and has plans and procedures in place for the local emergency opertions center.

              We work very well with the regional health district, local and state police, state environmental protection, and other agencies. We build positive relationships with many people and agencies before we need them to respond at O'dark 30.

              Our systems are less formal than yours. We do not use the term Technical Specialist if we need the public health department for an incident, we call them the health department. Their represenative reports to the command post and works with the IC to mange the situation. Local policies determine who runs the incident.
              Last edited by KenNFD1219; 12-21-2006, 09:46 PM.
              -------------------
              "The most mediocre man or woman can suddenly seem dynamic, forceful, and decisive if he or she is mean enough." from "Crazy Bosses"
              -----------------------------------------------
              Genius has its limits, but stupidity is boundless.

              Comment


              • We do not use the term Technical Specialist if we need the public health department for an incident, we call them the health department. Their represenative reports to the command post and works with the IC to mange the situation.
                Bingo. Plain and simple. You also don't end up with a health department person wondering who/what the heck "Technical Specialist" is referring to. Again, plain text, not code text.
                "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by VinnieB View Post

                  I think the problem is that 99% of the world has no concept of our operations. We have a great system in place already, there's no need for drastic change.
                  My current chief of the volunteer dept spent 30+ years in the National Guard and I also work with a state wildfire agency that has 2 retired and 1 current Type 1 ICs as part of the staff so I'm very familiar with ICS.

                  That being said I would like you to teach me your way of incident command. Keeping in mind that we are a volunteer dept. we do not have the same manning as you do on a paid dept. You, FFRED, ChicagoFF, and others may have ways of command that our dept can use to make our system work better. ICS works for us but knowledge of other systems never hurts.

                  Stay safe
                  Homey
                  Fight fire aggrressively having provided for Safety first.

                  Comment

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