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The “Hoffy” Hose Load

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  • hftfiretech
    replied
    My goal is to...

    ...answer all your questions. The reality is most extremely long hose loads are typically (with my 20+ years of experience) only at best perhaps 60% efficient. In other words, 200' feet of hose yields approximately at best maybe 120' of true advance as the remaining 80' is laid back and forth somewhere on the fire ground with many unavoidable kinks essentially never to be utilized once 'charged' in place where it was originally 'flaked.' Please know I completely understand the need to extend to the end of a long driveway where more hose actually fulfills this purpose.

    My first deployment demonstrates how one (1) [as myself] can deploy every inch of 150' of 150' of hose in less than forty seconds... with no kinks... by circumventing any obstacle encountered. The second demonstrates this same attack line can be immediately deployed as a protection line in less than 30 seconds... within 10' of your apparatus... again, in both cases, only one (1) fire fighter to do the ENTIRE job to free up other personnel to immediately deploy multiple [back-up] lines simultaneously and other important tasks such as RESCUE! ...to be perhaps a little more efficient with every second we are afforded to do what we have all committed our lives to do... SAFELY!

    My latest post describes the manner in which a 300' line can be deployed a little less than 50' from your apparatus and fully deployed in a manner of seconds under nearly all conditions... with the flexibility to run the length of a long drive way without the need of an extension... and yet under all conditions ALWAYS have the ability to immediately charge this PROTECTION line at the mere drop of the bundle the moment there is a need for, "WATER!" ...even if the nozzleman can't communicate he is 'prepared' for the line to be charged, all he has to do is lay low and wait! The load "flakes" [charges in the coil configuration] itself out automatically with absolutely NO water restrictive kinks!

    I am currently obtaining bids to manufacture and distribute the hose roller at a more 'realistic' production price... Again, you choose the device that best fits your needs... you can either just roll your hose in the field or back at the station like you have never in the past... or obtain the complete system that does it all in which either model can be quickly converted into a rope rescue pulley system in a matter of moments when seconds truly count. There is no other with such versatility!

    All my best!

    Rich Hoffmann
    Fire Captain/Peace Officer (med-ret.)
    www.hftfire.com
    (888) 602-FIRE

    Leave a comment:


  • hftfiretech
    replied
    Been awhile since I checked in...

    Sorry guys and gals if these entries ‘appear’ a bit long… I’ll just let this concern from those specific authors speak for themselves. In regards to better illustrations for each evolution, I agree, more are necessary to help better describe and validate each verifiable claim. Just please understand, prior to my medical retirement, I was responsible for supervising and training incarcerated inmates at a prison facility and therefore no photos could be taken of my crew and apparatus. The photo’s you request will be available soon as I am working with a fire academy that has a little flexibility outside the mandatory IFSTA Manual to assist me to illustrate each procedure… including 100'+ of hose coiled on a single or pair of horizontal supports of adequate size, strength, and durability for mobile attack that doubles as immediate structure and personnel and apparatus protection.

    On another separate note, as this is clearly on "open" forum, “Haweater,” I am sure you have a lot to offer your department, but I am truly trying to be polite when I state you missed and/or misunderstood the intent of the video. Simply take another moment and count again the couplings... there are three (3)... times (X) 50'... and therefore the 150'+ industry SAFETY minimum can be deployed within 10’ feet of a threatened and as illustrated, severely burned over apparatus to prevent the very accusation you state, "Certainly looks handy for 100' beds, hope you have painted the truck with the b-b-q paint cuz you gotta pull up close!" I choose to not comment any further as I feel I made my point clear.

    Again, we're all on the same team here. Perhaps you're initial-attack response area doesn't include a wildland threat of such potential volatility, nor do you feel there would any situation ever in which immediate deployment within any range of your apparatus up to the entire length of any pre-connect would be necessary. This is your call. As "unrealistic" as we all know and admit it is to circumvent a parked car and then return to your garaged apparatus to circumvent yet a second fixed object, a vertical post between two (2) bay doors no less, please just try to get all I am trying to illustrate is the fact even your absolute worst case scenario with an unlimited number of right angle turns you may encounter as you deploy your hose simply become a non-issue followed by the elimination of yet another important yet dangerous step as absolutely ZERO hand manipulation (required 'flaking' if and only if adequate space may even be available) is necessary to immediately obtain and secure 100% nozzle pressure under essentially ALL conditions.

    My invitation to you is to try the same or similar “obstacle course” at your firehouse as you test any load you now have to see how it compares as one (1) fire fighter completes this evolution without ever abandoning the nozzle and therefore frees up other fire fighters for other important tactical operations such as RESCUE! …followed by the evolution of hand rolling each prepared coil of ‘charged’ line to further advance the nozzle almost effortlessly until literally every inch of hose is used to it’s entire length.

    To answer DrParasite “so basicly what you are saying is in a 200 ft or 300 ft preconnect, all but the last 100 ft will still need to be flaked out, correct?”

    Yes, to K.I.S.S., any length of hose up to the 100’ coil bundle can be folded in a “quadra-fold” as follows:

    I will post photos to illustrate the female is coupled to male discharge, hose draped out of the bed down the side of the apparatus to the ground, then laid out perpendicular to a point a little less than ¼ the hose length out from apparatus, fold and reverse back to apparatus where hose met the ground at bottom of drape, then fold and reverse back to first fold a little less than ¼ the hose length out from apparatus, fold and reverse back to apparatus at bottom of drape, and finally vertically to connect the male coupling to female coupling of the coil hose bundle which is purposely positioned at the edge of the hose bed. This entire "quadra-fold" hose is then loaded as one (1) unit back and forth in the hose bed in a manner in which both folds become the two (2) primary indicator loops on the primary side of deployment and a single (1) indicator loop is created and positioned on the opposite side so it can be quickly removed from either side of the hose bed in its entirety as the video clearly illustrates.

    In every scenario, the hose bed is cleared completely in one shot even when up to 200’ is “quadra-folded” [300’ hose load] in the manner described above. Every inch of hose can be laid in a relatively short single pull and the 100’ bundle can be charged the moment it hits the ground for immediate personnel and apparatus protection. No deviation is ever expected or suggested regarding you minimum standards. Just as a triple fold or other load (with their deployment limitations) can be mastered with little effort, this too can be learned but by utilizing laws of physics that actually work for us instead of against us.

    Please do not get me wrong though, this is merely a suggestion as you’re are always the one who calls the shots. I am just trying to make everyone aware of some of the dangers we face out here out west and the impact this knowledge has to assist even the smallest of departments when personnel and resources are stretched to the bare minimums.

    As always, every comment is welcomed and appreciated. You have all made me think of issues I didn’t know that I didn’t know that clearly need to be answered. All my best as the holiday season approaches. Please feel free to www.hftfire.com where I plan to make further changes and write me direct at [email protected]

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    I'm still waiting to see a picture of an engine with the loops hanging in the front.

    Leave a comment:


  • JAFA62
    replied
    Oops

    I said it wrong Each apparatus has 2- 200' of 1 3/4 and 1- 100' of 1 3/4 and
    1 -200' of 2 1/2.

    Leave a comment:


  • SBrooks
    replied
    What's the point in having so many 100' preconnects. We have one, a bumper line for car & dumpster fires. Everything else is at least 150'.

    Leave a comment:


  • JAFA62
    replied
    K.I.S.S. Our Department has all Engines and Ladders equiped with 2- 100' feet 1 3/4 preconnects 1 - 100' 1 3/4 preconnect and 1-200' 2 1/2 Preconnects. All of them on are flat loads which have 2 loops on 1 big 1 small. The small loop is 100' in the lay and the large loop is 75' into the lay and all you do is put your arm through the big loop grap the little loop and walk away. The small loop tightens then you let go keep walking then the big loop tightens and now its good to go. Very easy to use and load and rarely kinks. Im sure there is a name for this load i just dont know it (lol)

    Leave a comment:


  • Haweater
    replied
    Certainly looks handy for 100' beds, hope you have painted the truck with the b-b-q paint cuz you gotta pull up close!

    Leave a comment:


  • drparasite
    replied
    Originally posted by hftfiretech
    In response to DrParasite, to answer your question, each bundle is coiled to a maximum length of 100’ …and then coupled to the next. 300’ would require perhaps one (1) 100’ coil w/ nozzle and 200’ loaded in the manner you do presently.
    so basicly what you are saying is in a 200 ft or 300 ft preconnect, all but the last 100 ft will still need to be flaked out, correct?

    it might be a good thing for a front bumper attack line, but I am still not seeing a huge advantage in our primary preconnected structural attack lines.

    just my opinion

    Leave a comment:


  • needlejockey
    replied
    Originally posted by Haweater
    Am I the only one that came to that last LOOOOONNNNNG post and said 'to hell with it'. Them's some long replies Hoffy, got a condensed version?
    You ain't the only one. They're friggin huge.

    Leave a comment:


  • Haweater
    replied
    Am I the only one that came to that last LOOOOONNNNNG post and said 'to hell with it'. Them's some long replies Hoffy, got a condensed version?

    Leave a comment:


  • hftfiretech
    replied
    Oh... as it is Fire Prevention month...

    Perhaps this needs to be a different thread (new at this) but please go to my site:

    www.fireandlifesafety.org

    ...and please provide any and all feedback regarding the content or any other concerns you may have. I am trying to include as much as possible before I send flyers to my local school district. Thanks!

    Leave a comment:


  • hftfiretech
    replied
    To address

    Yes, we all know how anything can be perceived as "scary" but especially when something has never been conceived let alone experimented, field tested, nor demonstrated in the presence of those who have expressed such valid concerns. Yet at the same time, however, please consider where we are now (in the third millennium) from where we have arrived in regards to other advancements that has sometimes been considered "radical" even these past 25 years… let alone since the late 1800’s:

    Consider “improved” Air-Attack operations as ridiculous as it may seem today has now added a near zero maneuverability Boeing 747 and a DC-10 to it’s fleet; from vehicle accident "Wash Downs" to incredible advancements in Haz-Mat intervention that now includes dedicated apparatus and highly trained SPECIALISTS that no budget would have considered years ago; wetting and fire protective gels and agents that we never thought twice about that now actually benefit the environment; my example regarding PPV; and every other sophisticated procedure conceived and not yet conceived that first, makes our job SAFER, next more effective and therefore easier to bring an incident to full mitigation, and finally to provide faster restoration of all apparatus and equipment as we prepare for the next call. That next call which none of us can ever predict yet know and realize could be the "BIG ONE" of our personal career.

    Please understand my only goal is to demonstrate literally every length of flat empty fire hose responds in the same predictable manner as any garden hose does due to specific, consistent, unavoidable Laws of Physics that occur literally ever time we step into action… but of course on a much larger scale. The discovery of this knowledge is the mother of these invention(s) to address the very issues others like you and me have experienced.

    Yes, for a more effective "mobile attack," it is possible to place a 150' or 200' bumper mounted and stored “pre-connect” onto the front of an apparatus: First removed from its box, then "coiled" and hung from either one (1) or two (2) posts of adequate length, strength and durability that both protrudes forward at the proper minor inclined angle and high enough above the ground to prevent the hose from dragging on the ground during mobile attack operations. When the hose is fully charged, each coil will expand on a vertical plane. In every case, the hose must be hung in coils of adequate size for proper water flow (minimum inside critical diameter) yet remains off the ground below. The nozzleman is then able to remove as much or as little hose as necessary during the evolution. For example, a mobile fire attack that must terminate due to inaccessible terrain issues can be extended and uninterrupted up to the full length of the pre-connect bumper attack-line before another length would be required to extend as necessary. Again, in every case, the charged coiled hose responds in the same manner as demonstrated in the video provided the Minimum Inside Critical Diameter is met and maintained.

    And, yet, just as the ISO determines the insurance rating for your district by their “practical” minimum standards and pre-determined placement of key apparatus and equipment, I respect only you know each specific need from your staffing levels and training to required equipment you feel best suits and addresses the current and expected fire- and life-safety risk(s) within your fire protection district. These concepts will only be a benefit if you truly see them as such… regardless of how confident I may be you will at the minimum find the upgradeable standard doughnut roller a true benefit that clearly out weighs the cost.

    It has been quite a process to transform the first hand-drawn absolute “BEAST” first assembled in the garage of a friend/retired Fire Captain from the USFS to the AutoCAD engineered, compact, and lightweight, unit it is in use today. A unit that performs as demonstrated at: www.hoseroller.us to assist every firefighter not only make his/her job easier and SAFER, but a device that can be put in service in a matter of moments both “on” or “off” the fire ground to quickly and effectively prepare every standard doughnut roll and (as an option) "pre-coil" literally every “attack” or hose extension line up to 1 ¾” to it's "Minimum Inside Critical Diameter" for immediate deployment virtually at it's water source and therefore at any distance up to the entire length of the hose in during the “advance” the moment water protection is demanded… without the need to ever expend any time and effort to arrange and re-arrange each "engineered" (pre-folded) water restrictive kink before a simple fire hose can function as it’s been simply designed: SAFE, reliable, and effective water stream protection in seconds to "Save Lives and Property."

    Additionally, not only do these laws of physics apply to a hose cabinet “insert” that can be fully charged and deployed from less than 25 square feet of a narrow hallway in a moments notice, but I have actually deployed this same UL Listed “Single Use” fire hose as an “additional” apparatus protection-line in the field when conditions warranted its immediate use. The look on a California Highway Patrolman’s face was priceless when I pulled up in my small Quick Attack mini-pumper to a vehicle fire that had extended to the adjacent wildland interface was extinguished in less than 45 seconds from the moment my wheels had stopped rolling.

    In literally less than 45 seconds, as I had pre-established adequate engine pressure via my PTO before rolling to a complete stop, I was able step out of the mini-pumper, release a small hose bundle, drop it to the ground, charge the line, and the proceeded to knock-down the rear plastic bumper of the car involved (rear fuel tank fire) with at first a mild fog pattern, and then quickly changed to a seventy (70’+) plus foot straight stream as I meticulously panned from left to right to reach the perimeter of a “quarter pie-shaped” burn pattern to fully extinguish roughly an eighth (1/8th) of an acre of tall grass and immediately eliminated the smoke, severely reduced visibility concern affecting all freeway traffic downwind.

    Yes, 100’ feet of UL Tested 1 ½” hose cabinet hose “pre-coiled” to a 52” bundle configuration which was then “folded” in the shape of rectangle (in the same manner you can fold a flat rubber band to fit any shape you like) and secured with a bungee cord on the diamond plate side board below the pump panel. Again, this was merely as an EXTRA apparatus protection-line pre-connected to a 2 ½” pump panel discharge that had been reduced to 1 ½” complete with a quarter-turn ball valve to allow immediate water flow and nozzle pressure in a matter of seconds. Yes, completely knocked down in less than 45 seconds total from an EXTRA 1 ½” attack line that I chose to utilize that occupied less than 25 square feet of space immediately next to my Quick-Attack on the side of a narrow freeway overpass. The entire evolution took place without ever dragging or deploying even one (1) inch of line ever, but rather while I stood next to my apparatus! Done! Finished! Fire out! A perfect scenario to demonstrate the versatility this configuration can provide.

    On a rather humorous side note, less than two (2) weeks later this same CHP Officer [Army National Guard Master Sergeant who would write his own mother a ticket!] for the first time in his entire career let me off with a verbal warning for doing 72 mph in the days of the 55 mph national speed limit at six (6) o’clock in the morning on my way in to report to duty. Timing is everything! Whew!

    Again, the last improvement I felt I needed to fully complete this unit is a non-obvious small “spool” attachment to utilize the same rope tensioning laws of physics (employed by every wind sailor) to winch any rescue rope perpendicular to the direction of the “locked and secured” removable crank handle. Again, the video at: www.hoseroller.us demonstrates the rescue rope practice as it is secured from a looped 7mm kern mantle rope in a Prusik Knot wrapped around and able to maintain the load (with all hands free) under the expected tensile strength of other rope rescue practices secured utilizing the same equipment in a similar manner. These measures are performed by the assistance of three (3) crewmembers as demonstrated.

    Your feedback regarding this and all other practices presented here is also greatly appreciated. Please fire away!

    Leave a comment:


  • quint1officer
    replied
    Interesting idea, but if I ever had a jr firefighter that massacred a minuteman like that they would be getting a LOT of practice!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    I'm still trying to picture 200' of 1 3/4" coiled on the front of an engine. Comparing that to a garden hose is scary.

    Leave a comment:


  • hftfiretech
    replied
    A few more quick replies...

    First off, thanks again to everyone for contributing so much to cause me to look outside my box to address what I didn't know that I didn't know were other valid concerns I have yet to address.

    In response to 45 year veteran Chief Woods, whom I am honored to receive a tip of his helmet, yes, I agree, we rarely if ever advance attack lines by ourselves as we are required to train and demonstrate individual academy proficiency. Please note I purposely included a failed removal of the "Minute Man" load but only as an example to demonstrate this "mishap" remains a non-issue to the intentional "drop" of my load as I literally threw the hose to the ground adjacent to my fire apparatus to demonstrate the point it can be (if necessary as a Safety Measure only) utilized immediately... or upon being advanced dry, charged at a moments notice (emergency fire fighter protective Safety Measures) at literally any portion of the dry hose advance until reaching the point when water is demanded... and then able to be fully charged with absolutely no effort to arrange and re-arrange each "flake" ...and then able to deploy this fully charged line up to it's entire length in any direction in which a fire fighter only pulls the hose that he/she needs that has already cleared any and all obstacles up to that very point in the advance. Please refer to the spread sheet data and graphs which prove the mechanical advantages of this method in my article at www.hoseroller.info

    As far as a front bumper load, I love this configuration but especially for mobile attack when practical on wild land fires that are not in steep terrain. And yes, not with an inadequate short "stinger" as many fire apparatus in California are prepared, but rather with a full 150' or 200' length of hose that is "coiled" and (though I have no illustrations to show this tested and implemented procedure at this time) hung from a horizontal support member at the top of the front grill or on the cab below the windshield of a fire engine in which the hose hangs in the same manner you hang hard, round garden hose on a wall hook on the side of your home.

    During literally any fire (vehicle, structural, or any immediate threat to an engine and its personnel), the hose is either advanced, dropped to ground for immediate personnel protection ["Standard" and "Safety Blitz" deployment methods], or hung from this referred forward support member in which any “adjustable amount” of hose [perhaps a 25’ “Stinger” or so] of the full 150’ or 200’ length is utilized to affect an incredible “virtually unrestricted” water stream for mobile attack.

    Yes, this may sound absurd, but so does coiling 200’ or more of “pre-connected” 2 ½” hose within ten (10’) feet of the back of your engine, in eight (8’) foot diameter coils (ironically the width of your engine) and then FULLY CHARGING this line with absolutely no need to “serpentine” this hose out over several hundred square feet in which each “coil” can then be easily hand rolled (including around parked cars as the “tire” portion on the video demonstrates) to the most effective nozzle placement in an almost effortless manner. A tactic very few of our comrades have ever implemented.

    Again, the video is to only demonstrate specific laws of physics that can be employed in literally all conditions with or without prior preparation as my device may facilitate. The “Hoffy” method is only to help free up other (often limited number) first on-scene fire fighters/rescue personnel to accomplish the many other simultaneous top priorities we must address during the most crucial moments as we plan and prepare to mitigate each incident. These suggestions are in no way any attempt to express any deviation to any S.O.P.'s regarding minimum personnel and the SAFE tactical operations you have mandated.

    In response to DrParasite, to answer your question, each bundle is coiled to a maximum length of 100’ …and then coupled to the next. 300’ would require perhaps one (1) 100’ coil w/ nozzle and 200’ loaded in the manner you do presently. The 100’ high rise bundles can be charged on the stair case landing, advanced “dry” after connection, and deployed from the stack of remaining charged coils. We just need to manage it as any hose… in the path you choose “dry” and then establish fully charged. Note: These coils once charged can even lean against a wall in very tight quarters.

    In response to Bones42: The device is portable to be used either in our out of the field. It attaches to one (1) or two (2) small 2” X 3” X ¾” quick disconnect bracket(s) that will affix to any 4” X 4” wooden post or directly to a sturdy frame member of your apparatus (i.e. “real” bumper, etc.) or an adaptor for a standard 2” slide receiver. Yes, you can therefore do this in the field with the assistance of the patented device.

    To answer your next concern, I am not sure how you restore your apparatus at the end of an incident, but any “pre-connect” (again at your choice) can be reloaded in the field “dirty and wet” in any configuration you choose to be utilized if in fact you receive multiple calls that occur back to back. It is only upon your return to your station you would you remove all used hose for proper care and then replace each with “pre-bundled” 100’ hose coils that you keep as extra’s in your storage racks just as you presently store each doughnut roll. The beauty of the coiled hose bundles is they do not require the hose to be laid out onto the apparatus room apron and therefore exposed to any and all adverse weather conditions as a “Triple-Fold” or other flat load method demands. The “coiled” hose bundle apparatus restoration method(s) can be accomplished virtually to their completion inside the comfort of closed bay doors.

    Yes, in many ways high tech can be more of a problem/cost than the benefit(s) its inventor(s) may claim. I recognize I am no exception as I expect nothing in return but the opportunity for me to continue to share and attempt to answer each and every valid concern regarding these concepts I have spent a better part of my career learning and implementing to address the many safety issues I have personally faced as I have been blessed to lead my crews to a safe return home at the close of each shift. My heart goes out to each and every one of you who have not been as fortunate as I as you push through yet another day knowing these are the consequences of the business we’re in… and this is the reality we CHOOSE to face! Never for some “wanna-be” recognition we can show off to all our friends and family, but because of the true to the core men and women we are that know and understand all things are merely ornamental in comparison to our stand to our commitment we create ourselves to be every day.
    Please take another moment as I have since included a new 15 second video demonstration of the effective use of the rope rescue hand winch attachment that like the entire hose roller can be anchored to any standard 2” trailer hitch slide at: www.hoseroller.us

    My original site (I realize is in much need of editing) is www.hftfire.com Please continue to Fire away!

    Leave a comment:

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