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The “Hoffy” Hose Load

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  • #31
    Look like a bad idea....

    The hose load shown seems to be used in a rather unrealistic situation. I also thought the video tried to make the minuteman load look worse than it is. I must admit I'm no fan of the minuteman, but it looks like a bit of propaganda.

    We went to the triple load maybe 15 years ago. I know for sure that I could have lots of water on the fire before this walk around and hand jack hose load thing got water flowing. One guy can easily pull the triple load, which isn't loaded with any sharp creases, only folds. A few Chiefs over the years wanted to change it. It only took a side by side test of the triple load vs the challeger and nothing has beat it so far.

    It was enough to get everybody on the same sheet of music to take the nozzle AND the loop with the triple load. A minor change from our old hose load, but if a load it too complicated to deploy, it will be screwed up for sure when thing get exciting. I could see lots of problems with this Hoffy setup.


    • #32
      Thanks again for pointing out another concern...

      [QUOTE=Sta46JAM]The hose load shown seems to be used in a rather unrealistic situation...

      Again, I hear, welcome and appreciate every rebuttal. The video, as “unrealistic” as it may appear, is simply an educational tool to present and demonstrate under extreme conditions specific Laws of Physics to make a few very simple points regarding the deployment and advancement of attack- and heavy, cumbersome exposure-lines… and especially during “unique” incident conditions:

      (1) Virtually any right angle turns during the "dry" hose deployment phase become irrelevant/non-issue in the same manner as deploying a “Minute Man” or similar load. Though I have always been an advocate for the superior characteristics of the “Triple Fold” configuration, we must all admit it, like all "long-tail" hose loads that force us to lay a section of hose behind our "start line," are difficult at best when circumventing multiple “turns” as I illustrated in a truly “unrealistic” manner around a parked vehicle and then the post between two (2) open bay doors to compare to any “abnormal” conditions (please use your imagination here) that may unexpectedly present themselves as a firefighter may then have a choice to traverse beyond said obstacle(s) before a line “must” be charged when adequate space may not otherwise be available for other "conventional" loads.

      (2) Secondly, as there are many advantages of a full shoulder load as described above, it too cannot be “flaked out” within a limited area in literal seconds without the necessary procedures which typically includes abandoning the nozzle to arrange and then re-arrange again the hose in hopes to remove each bend (unavoidable kink “engineered” into literally every “folded” hose bundle) that meets or exceeds that specific minimum critical radius in which water will then flow unrestricted to the next “engineered” bend in the hose load before finally reaching the nozzle.

      In literally every case the “Hoffy” load is "pre-coiled" to meet and/or exceed the "Minimum Inside Critical Diameter" in order for literally every fire hose up to 1 ¾” to function in the same manner a fully charged garden hose does for even a small child to operate at 100% nozzle pressure… literally at the water source… without ever deploying an inch of hose… Ever! The example I chose to illustrate these specific Laws of Physics is the unfortunate USFS engine that was severely “burned over” as it appears it’s crew members neither had the time nor the space to deploy any pre-connected “protective” lines when this “spot fire” was perhaps first recognized and therefore may still have been small enough to mitigate by the means of additional resources (multiple attack lines) that might have been available if other "protective measures" were already in place.

      I am not trying to be redundant as I pursue every response, I am only trying to demonstrate a few specific laws of physics and another alternative as we establish we only fight fire with hard, round, and rigid fire hose that just happens to be flat literally moments before we step into action. In the same way we all know what happens when we fold a garden hose, I am merely trying to present we are not so much in the business of finding perhaps the best way to "engineer unavoidable water restrictive kinks" (“storage by means of folding”) into our hose as we load each “pre-connect” and hose bundle on our apparatus, and not only for those within our communities whom count on us to be prepared to most effectively save lives and property, but to perhaps, with a little familiarization and training, protect ourselves more effectively as we utilize every law of physics to better prepare each length that guards us from imminent danger that facilitates both immediate deployment and ease of advancement when our man-power may be compromised and seconds truly count.

      I always welcome and appreciate every comment, both positive and negative, you feel is important regarding any measure but especially something that may present radical change, but please remember, when many of us as I were first trained on the proper use of “smoke ejectors,” not only did we discover we didn't have to lift and invent some new and improved way to hang and shield these monsters more safely in a door way but we only missed pointing them in the correct direction by 180 degrees! No change there!

      Come on guys and gals, this is the third millennium... we're the high tech generation! Can open your mind just a little this direction?

      Again, to see the actual device that not only rolls and then prepares hose for immediate deployment, but also functions as a SAFE hand operated rope rescue winch, please go to: www.hoseroller.us

      I am all ears!

      Rich "Hoffy" Hoffmann
      Fire Captain/Peace Officer (med-ret. "Pig 'n HEAT!")

      P.S. I am honored you all felt compelled to commence and continue this dialog.


      • #33

        I'm still pulling a line from time to time, and I have tried a bunch of different Hose loads over the years, and I still think we get our best operation from the Flat load. First guy (or Gal) takes the Nozzle and 50 feet, 2nd guy takes the next fold and 50 feet, the rest of the bed follows behind. Couple of points: ONE PERSON does NOT run a line alone. Period. Yes, I have the staffing. And, when you start as a rookie, you learn to be very observant of your surroundings, and pull the right length for the job. Yes we pull the right length, with few exceptions, and we also use the Front Bumper Lines (150' and 200' 1.5") a lot. Nozzleman usually has water in 20 seconds, depending on whether he has made it to the door yet. Absolutely no disrespect intended here, and a tip of the Helment to Capt. Hoffman for trying to make the job easier.
        Last edited by hwoods; 10-23-2006, 07:29 AM.
        Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
        In memory of
        Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
        Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

        IACOJ Budget Analyst

        I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.



        • #34
          Rich, from your video (which shows a person who needs more training in using a minuteman load), it would appear that the new way to pack to hose works on small lengths of hose. we we two 200 Ft preconnects and one 300 ft preconnect. now correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't that needs to be wrapped into one big loop, which would get dropped at the engineers feet?

          plus, if used in a hirise pack, you end up with the rolled hose at the feet of the standpipe operator?
          If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!



          • #35
            Again, to see the actual device that not only rolls and then prepares hose for immediate deployment
            So, to create and use this hose load, I have to get one of these "devices"? I can't repack my hose at the scene anymore?

            the high tech generation
            Sometimes, high tech is the problem and not the answer.
            "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?


            • #36
              A few more quick replies...

              First off, thanks again to everyone for contributing so much to cause me to look outside my box to address what I didn't know that I didn't know were other valid concerns I have yet to address.

              In response to 45 year veteran Chief Woods, whom I am honored to receive a tip of his helmet, yes, I agree, we rarely if ever advance attack lines by ourselves as we are required to train and demonstrate individual academy proficiency. Please note I purposely included a failed removal of the "Minute Man" load but only as an example to demonstrate this "mishap" remains a non-issue to the intentional "drop" of my load as I literally threw the hose to the ground adjacent to my fire apparatus to demonstrate the point it can be (if necessary as a Safety Measure only) utilized immediately... or upon being advanced dry, charged at a moments notice (emergency fire fighter protective Safety Measures) at literally any portion of the dry hose advance until reaching the point when water is demanded... and then able to be fully charged with absolutely no effort to arrange and re-arrange each "flake" ...and then able to deploy this fully charged line up to it's entire length in any direction in which a fire fighter only pulls the hose that he/she needs that has already cleared any and all obstacles up to that very point in the advance. Please refer to the spread sheet data and graphs which prove the mechanical advantages of this method in my article at www.hoseroller.info

              As far as a front bumper load, I love this configuration but especially for mobile attack when practical on wild land fires that are not in steep terrain. And yes, not with an inadequate short "stinger" as many fire apparatus in California are prepared, but rather with a full 150' or 200' length of hose that is "coiled" and (though I have no illustrations to show this tested and implemented procedure at this time) hung from a horizontal support member at the top of the front grill or on the cab below the windshield of a fire engine in which the hose hangs in the same manner you hang hard, round garden hose on a wall hook on the side of your home.

              During literally any fire (vehicle, structural, or any immediate threat to an engine and its personnel), the hose is either advanced, dropped to ground for immediate personnel protection ["Standard" and "Safety Blitz" deployment methods], or hung from this referred forward support member in which any “adjustable amount” of hose [perhaps a 25’ “Stinger” or so] of the full 150’ or 200’ length is utilized to affect an incredible “virtually unrestricted” water stream for mobile attack.

              Yes, this may sound absurd, but so does coiling 200’ or more of “pre-connected” 2 ½” hose within ten (10’) feet of the back of your engine, in eight (8’) foot diameter coils (ironically the width of your engine) and then FULLY CHARGING this line with absolutely no need to “serpentine” this hose out over several hundred square feet in which each “coil” can then be easily hand rolled (including around parked cars as the “tire” portion on the video demonstrates) to the most effective nozzle placement in an almost effortless manner. A tactic very few of our comrades have ever implemented.

              Again, the video is to only demonstrate specific laws of physics that can be employed in literally all conditions with or without prior preparation as my device may facilitate. The “Hoffy” method is only to help free up other (often limited number) first on-scene fire fighters/rescue personnel to accomplish the many other simultaneous top priorities we must address during the most crucial moments as we plan and prepare to mitigate each incident. These suggestions are in no way any attempt to express any deviation to any S.O.P.'s regarding minimum personnel and the SAFE tactical operations you have mandated.

              In response to DrParasite, to answer your question, each bundle is coiled to a maximum length of 100’ …and then coupled to the next. 300’ would require perhaps one (1) 100’ coil w/ nozzle and 200’ loaded in the manner you do presently. The 100’ high rise bundles can be charged on the stair case landing, advanced “dry” after connection, and deployed from the stack of remaining charged coils. We just need to manage it as any hose… in the path you choose “dry” and then establish fully charged. Note: These coils once charged can even lean against a wall in very tight quarters.

              In response to Bones42: The device is portable to be used either in our out of the field. It attaches to one (1) or two (2) small 2” X 3” X ¾” quick disconnect bracket(s) that will affix to any 4” X 4” wooden post or directly to a sturdy frame member of your apparatus (i.e. “real” bumper, etc.) or an adaptor for a standard 2” slide receiver. Yes, you can therefore do this in the field with the assistance of the patented device.

              To answer your next concern, I am not sure how you restore your apparatus at the end of an incident, but any “pre-connect” (again at your choice) can be reloaded in the field “dirty and wet” in any configuration you choose to be utilized if in fact you receive multiple calls that occur back to back. It is only upon your return to your station you would you remove all used hose for proper care and then replace each with “pre-bundled” 100’ hose coils that you keep as extra’s in your storage racks just as you presently store each doughnut roll. The beauty of the coiled hose bundles is they do not require the hose to be laid out onto the apparatus room apron and therefore exposed to any and all adverse weather conditions as a “Triple-Fold” or other flat load method demands. The “coiled” hose bundle apparatus restoration method(s) can be accomplished virtually to their completion inside the comfort of closed bay doors.

              Yes, in many ways high tech can be more of a problem/cost than the benefit(s) its inventor(s) may claim. I recognize I am no exception as I expect nothing in return but the opportunity for me to continue to share and attempt to answer each and every valid concern regarding these concepts I have spent a better part of my career learning and implementing to address the many safety issues I have personally faced as I have been blessed to lead my crews to a safe return home at the close of each shift. My heart goes out to each and every one of you who have not been as fortunate as I as you push through yet another day knowing these are the consequences of the business we’re in… and this is the reality we CHOOSE to face! Never for some “wanna-be” recognition we can show off to all our friends and family, but because of the true to the core men and women we are that know and understand all things are merely ornamental in comparison to our stand to our commitment we create ourselves to be every day.
              Please take another moment as I have since included a new 15 second video demonstration of the effective use of the rope rescue hand winch attachment that like the entire hose roller can be anchored to any standard 2” trailer hitch slide at: www.hoseroller.us

              My original site (I realize is in much need of editing) is www.hftfire.com Please continue to Fire away!


              • #37
                I'm still trying to picture 200' of 1 3/4" coiled on the front of an engine. Comparing that to a garden hose is scary.
                "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?


                • #38
                  Interesting idea, but if I ever had a jr firefighter that massacred a minuteman like that they would be getting a LOT of practice!!


                  • #39
                    To address

                    Yes, we all know how anything can be perceived as "scary" but especially when something has never been conceived let alone experimented, field tested, nor demonstrated in the presence of those who have expressed such valid concerns. Yet at the same time, however, please consider where we are now (in the third millennium) from where we have arrived in regards to other advancements that has sometimes been considered "radical" even these past 25 years… let alone since the late 1800’s:

                    Consider “improved” Air-Attack operations as ridiculous as it may seem today has now added a near zero maneuverability Boeing 747 and a DC-10 to it’s fleet; from vehicle accident "Wash Downs" to incredible advancements in Haz-Mat intervention that now includes dedicated apparatus and highly trained SPECIALISTS that no budget would have considered years ago; wetting and fire protective gels and agents that we never thought twice about that now actually benefit the environment; my example regarding PPV; and every other sophisticated procedure conceived and not yet conceived that first, makes our job SAFER, next more effective and therefore easier to bring an incident to full mitigation, and finally to provide faster restoration of all apparatus and equipment as we prepare for the next call. That next call which none of us can ever predict yet know and realize could be the "BIG ONE" of our personal career.

                    Please understand my only goal is to demonstrate literally every length of flat empty fire hose responds in the same predictable manner as any garden hose does due to specific, consistent, unavoidable Laws of Physics that occur literally ever time we step into action… but of course on a much larger scale. The discovery of this knowledge is the mother of these invention(s) to address the very issues others like you and me have experienced.

                    Yes, for a more effective "mobile attack," it is possible to place a 150' or 200' bumper mounted and stored “pre-connect” onto the front of an apparatus: First removed from its box, then "coiled" and hung from either one (1) or two (2) posts of adequate length, strength and durability that both protrudes forward at the proper minor inclined angle and high enough above the ground to prevent the hose from dragging on the ground during mobile attack operations. When the hose is fully charged, each coil will expand on a vertical plane. In every case, the hose must be hung in coils of adequate size for proper water flow (minimum inside critical diameter) yet remains off the ground below. The nozzleman is then able to remove as much or as little hose as necessary during the evolution. For example, a mobile fire attack that must terminate due to inaccessible terrain issues can be extended and uninterrupted up to the full length of the pre-connect bumper attack-line before another length would be required to extend as necessary. Again, in every case, the charged coiled hose responds in the same manner as demonstrated in the video provided the Minimum Inside Critical Diameter is met and maintained.

                    And, yet, just as the ISO determines the insurance rating for your district by their “practical” minimum standards and pre-determined placement of key apparatus and equipment, I respect only you know each specific need from your staffing levels and training to required equipment you feel best suits and addresses the current and expected fire- and life-safety risk(s) within your fire protection district. These concepts will only be a benefit if you truly see them as such… regardless of how confident I may be you will at the minimum find the upgradeable standard doughnut roller a true benefit that clearly out weighs the cost.

                    It has been quite a process to transform the first hand-drawn absolute “BEAST” first assembled in the garage of a friend/retired Fire Captain from the USFS to the AutoCAD engineered, compact, and lightweight, unit it is in use today. A unit that performs as demonstrated at: www.hoseroller.us to assist every firefighter not only make his/her job easier and SAFER, but a device that can be put in service in a matter of moments both “on” or “off” the fire ground to quickly and effectively prepare every standard doughnut roll and (as an option) "pre-coil" literally every “attack” or hose extension line up to 1 ¾” to it's "Minimum Inside Critical Diameter" for immediate deployment virtually at it's water source and therefore at any distance up to the entire length of the hose in during the “advance” the moment water protection is demanded… without the need to ever expend any time and effort to arrange and re-arrange each "engineered" (pre-folded) water restrictive kink before a simple fire hose can function as it’s been simply designed: SAFE, reliable, and effective water stream protection in seconds to "Save Lives and Property."

                    Additionally, not only do these laws of physics apply to a hose cabinet “insert” that can be fully charged and deployed from less than 25 square feet of a narrow hallway in a moments notice, but I have actually deployed this same UL Listed “Single Use” fire hose as an “additional” apparatus protection-line in the field when conditions warranted its immediate use. The look on a California Highway Patrolman’s face was priceless when I pulled up in my small Quick Attack mini-pumper to a vehicle fire that had extended to the adjacent wildland interface was extinguished in less than 45 seconds from the moment my wheels had stopped rolling.

                    In literally less than 45 seconds, as I had pre-established adequate engine pressure via my PTO before rolling to a complete stop, I was able step out of the mini-pumper, release a small hose bundle, drop it to the ground, charge the line, and the proceeded to knock-down the rear plastic bumper of the car involved (rear fuel tank fire) with at first a mild fog pattern, and then quickly changed to a seventy (70’+) plus foot straight stream as I meticulously panned from left to right to reach the perimeter of a “quarter pie-shaped” burn pattern to fully extinguish roughly an eighth (1/8th) of an acre of tall grass and immediately eliminated the smoke, severely reduced visibility concern affecting all freeway traffic downwind.

                    Yes, 100’ feet of UL Tested 1 ½” hose cabinet hose “pre-coiled” to a 52” bundle configuration which was then “folded” in the shape of rectangle (in the same manner you can fold a flat rubber band to fit any shape you like) and secured with a bungee cord on the diamond plate side board below the pump panel. Again, this was merely as an EXTRA apparatus protection-line pre-connected to a 2 ½” pump panel discharge that had been reduced to 1 ½” complete with a quarter-turn ball valve to allow immediate water flow and nozzle pressure in a matter of seconds. Yes, completely knocked down in less than 45 seconds total from an EXTRA 1 ½” attack line that I chose to utilize that occupied less than 25 square feet of space immediately next to my Quick-Attack on the side of a narrow freeway overpass. The entire evolution took place without ever dragging or deploying even one (1) inch of line ever, but rather while I stood next to my apparatus! Done! Finished! Fire out! A perfect scenario to demonstrate the versatility this configuration can provide.

                    On a rather humorous side note, less than two (2) weeks later this same CHP Officer [Army National Guard Master Sergeant who would write his own mother a ticket!] for the first time in his entire career let me off with a verbal warning for doing 72 mph in the days of the 55 mph national speed limit at six (6) o’clock in the morning on my way in to report to duty. Timing is everything! Whew!

                    Again, the last improvement I felt I needed to fully complete this unit is a non-obvious small “spool” attachment to utilize the same rope tensioning laws of physics (employed by every wind sailor) to winch any rescue rope perpendicular to the direction of the “locked and secured” removable crank handle. Again, the video at: www.hoseroller.us demonstrates the rescue rope practice as it is secured from a looped 7mm kern mantle rope in a Prusik Knot wrapped around and able to maintain the load (with all hands free) under the expected tensile strength of other rope rescue practices secured utilizing the same equipment in a similar manner. These measures are performed by the assistance of three (3) crewmembers as demonstrated.

                    Your feedback regarding this and all other practices presented here is also greatly appreciated. Please fire away!


                    • #40
                      Oh... as it is Fire Prevention month...

                      Perhaps this needs to be a different thread (new at this) but please go to my site:


                      ...and please provide any and all feedback regarding the content or any other concerns you may have. I am trying to include as much as possible before I send flyers to my local school district. Thanks!


                      • #41
                        Am I the only one that came to that last LOOOOONNNNNG post and said 'to hell with it'. Them's some long replies Hoffy, got a condensed version?
                        Nobody ever called the fire department for doing something smart.


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Haweater
                          Am I the only one that came to that last LOOOOONNNNNG post and said 'to hell with it'. Them's some long replies Hoffy, got a condensed version?
                          You ain't the only one. They're friggin huge.
                          Fir Na Tine
                          Fir Na Au Saol


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by hftfiretech
                            In response to DrParasite, to answer your question, each bundle is coiled to a maximum length of 100’ …and then coupled to the next. 300’ would require perhaps one (1) 100’ coil w/ nozzle and 200’ loaded in the manner you do presently.
                            so basicly what you are saying is in a 200 ft or 300 ft preconnect, all but the last 100 ft will still need to be flaked out, correct?

                            it might be a good thing for a front bumper attack line, but I am still not seeing a huge advantage in our primary preconnected structural attack lines.

                            just my opinion
                            If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!



                            • #44
                              Certainly looks handy for 100' beds, hope you have painted the truck with the b-b-q paint cuz you gotta pull up close!
                              Nobody ever called the fire department for doing something smart.


                              • #45
                                K.I.S.S. Our Department has all Engines and Ladders equiped with 2- 100' feet 1 3/4 preconnects 1 - 100' 1 3/4 preconnect and 1-200' 2 1/2 Preconnects. All of them on are flat loads which have 2 loops on 1 big 1 small. The small loop is 100' in the lay and the large loop is 75' into the lay and all you do is put your arm through the big loop grap the little loop and walk away. The small loop tightens then you let go keep walking then the big loop tightens and now its good to go. Very easy to use and load and rarely kinks. Im sure there is a name for this load i just dont know it (lol)


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