September 2006 - Cover Drill

[NDeMarse]

Hello All:

First of all, great shot by Martin Nate Rawner. He does a great job documenting the work on the West Coast.

Any thoughts to this photo? I am not sure when in the operation that it was taken, but these guys continue to operate on a VERY WELL VENTED peaked roof.



The entire gable end of this attic has burned away. This alone in my opinion would be ample ventilation and NO holes would be needed in the roof.

I do understand that the burning of the gable end could have been after the members were already on the roof and operating. At any rate, the brothers have to recognize that it is now time to come down.

The only way to stop this fire is to start pulling ceiling at your entry point (door) and continue to pull and extinguish the fire as you expose it.

IF THIS IS A TRUSS BUILDING, IT IS LOST AND ALL MEMBERS OPERATING ON OR IN THIS BUILDING ARE IN EXTREME DANGER AND MUST BACK OUT NOW!

Just my thoughts, I wanted to make a little discussion on a cover.

[jlcooke3]

First off I'll start by saying that this is all speculation based on a snapshot.

1. If you look a the ff on the ladder he appears to be descending, to me this indicates that the roof team is coming down. If this isn't the case then they need to be ordered off the roof.

2. The line on the roof appears to be operating to protect the members on the roof. I'm basing that on the fact that it's appears to be set on wide angle fog.

3. Based on the appearent archictecture (look at the column on the corner of the porch) it appears to be a 1950's style house indicating that the roof is a traditional rafter set up. This needs to be verified by pulling the ceiling and confirming if possible. If its a truss pull interior teams out, and use deck guns to darken down the fire. If it's traditional rafters then its just like you stated, pull the ceiling and extinguish as you move in.

[NDeMarse]

First off I'll start by saying that this is all speculation based on a snapshot.

Of course, that is what using photos for drilling is all about.

[kieranhope]

Here are the facts of this fire, coming from my friend who is a fireman for Los Angeles City FD at works on Truck 66.
1. The fire began in an outside utility room to the rear of the house and extended into the attic, running the attic.
2. When companies first arrived, heavy black smoke was coming from the attic vent, which is blowing heavy fire on the cover of the mag.
3. T66 went to the roof and cut its first hole near the rear of the house. After a few seconds, heavy fire was blowing through this first hole. The initial hole was delayed because the pitch of the roof required a roof ladder.
4. E66 went inside, pulling ceiling and finding heavy fire load in the attic. Two lines went inside through the front door; the first line from E46 initially went to the rear of the house attempting to extinguish an "exterior fire."
5. The roof was 1x6 space sheeted with shake shingles covered by comp. It was a good, old conventional roof.
6. The fire ran the attic quickly, causing the truck company to cut another hole, which is the one blowing fire by the chimney.
7. At the time this pic is taken, all members are about to be called off the roof, as seen by the one FF descending the ladder. The captain has a 1" line used to push smoke away from the saw operator and heat from the members on the roof.
8. About 10 minutes later, a portion of the roof did collapse onto the ceiling joists.
9. LAFD has a solid ventilation/roof operation, which is why they are very aggressive on roofs.
10. Don't confuse lightweight truss with conventional truss, which allows a prolonged operation due to its large sized lumber.
JLCook3, you pretty much nailed it.

[NDeMarse]

Thanks for the information on the operation. Don't get my statements confused as an attack on the operation in the photo, I was simply using the photo as a training tool (which is what we should be doing with ALL PHOTOS with smoke or fire in them). When we drill with photos, everyone should realize that it is a snapshot in time and there is no way to tell what is going on other than the 1/100th of a second it took to take the photo.

However, I disagree with your statement on trusses. It doesn't matter if the trussed lumber is 2x4, 6x6 or 12x12. The point at which the webs (triangles) connect to the cords (top and bottom) are going to weaken and fail first, causing the collapse. You might buy a little more time on a larger truss than a smaller one, but you shouldn't be on either if there is fire confirmed in the trusses (confirmed by fire from your ventilation opening).

I am happy that they were descending this roof. Even if it was a full dimensional "cut" roof with a ridge-pole, it's time to come down since there is NO HEADWAY being made on the fire from the photo.

Thanks for finding out the information

[jlcooke3]

kieranhope,

thanks for the info on what happened. No second guessing going on here just trying to get a good discussion going. Which suprisingly hasn't garned much attention from the shooda wooda club.

[NDeMarse]

kieranhope,

thanks for the info on what happened. No second guessing going on here just trying to get a good discussion going. Which suprisingly hasn't garned much attention from the shooda wooda club.

(SARCASM INSERTED) Yeah, your right. That would have sucked if we could have had a nice educated technical discussion on tactics and strategies based on a photo. There is probably nothing to learn from this photo anyway!(SARCASM ENDED)

I guess everyone is busy posting about which brand of fire truck is better, leather helmets, grants and other political BS.

[jlcooke3]

I guess everyone is busy posting about which brand of fire truck is better, leather helmets, grants and other political BS.

Only after they finish polishing their brand new super saftey team badges!

[Bones42]

I'm guessing there is little discussion on this as there is little to discuss. The attic is gone, get off the roof (we now know they are). What's to discuss? Are we all sitting around waiting for someone to disagree so we can argue that?

Would have been more discussion if we had a shot from before all the venting to discuss and go from there. At the point of this picture, story's over.

[GFDLT1]

I have a question for Kieranhope. Were the eng company guys able to save the house and put the fire out after the vent hole was cut and the ceilings pulled or did they back out when there was a partial roof collaspe and go defensive?

[kieranhope]

Yes. They were able to put the fire out with the two handlines inside without going defensive.