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  • jfTL41
    replied
    I work in an area with more hotel rooms than most cities have residents, I have never heard of any inpenatrible hotel room locks, neither have any of the other firefighters I asked. While I do believe that the manufacturers goal is for maximum security, they plan and design for burglary, not the firefighter with the Irons, see if this guy will put his money where his mouth is and set you up with some doors and locksets. I hope his corporate liabilty guys have thought about the message he is spreading that firefighters won't be able to open their doors, presumably to rescue the occupants behind said doors.

    Please do not be dissuaded from posting the photos here so we can see.

    Leave a comment:


  • capt4704
    replied
    OK so there are other methods of thought out there. Thats why the fire service is so progressive. That is why it is called a company, not an individual. Of course there are different ways for doing things, whatever gets the job done, and everyone goes home. As for the experience thing, dont take offense, but lets not start judging. That can be a problem, I thought I would put some information out there, Thats it. We are always looking for better ways to do things, I used the mule tool and plan on trying it in S****y conditions to see if it works better than conventional ways.

    Leave a comment:


  • Res343cue
    replied
    Originally posted by capt4704
    Hey Mcaldwell, thanks for the info. I had gotten all of the info but decided not to post it due to the lack of BROTHERS having an open mind. SOme good points were brought up in this forum, but some of the people that post are the same ones taking pictures of their helmets so everyone can see how dirty they are with 2/20. Stay safe.
    It seems as if the "BROTHERS" aren't the ones with close mind. You are.

    Firefighting is about adapting and overcoming obstacles. You gave us a post telling us what a rep. told you... Don't ya think it would be a little biased towards their product? You don't want to be telling people it would easy to break open a door with their product, because nobody will buy it!

    McCaldwel, a known poster on these forums, and someone with actual experience completely undermined what you said. You told us we could not force these doors.

    but a haligan or even a small officers tool will make quick work of those ones. They are nothing compared to a rated exterior commercial door.
    Actual experience from someone who works with them says otherwise... Of course the salesmen is going to tell you to buy the tool he has to open those doors. He makes more $$$ !

    Oh, and for the reference, I might only have a few years on the job in various roles, but the guys who are posting helmet photos are some of the Crustiest, most experienced, and well trained individuals on this site. Lay off.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by capt4704
    Hey Mcaldwell, thanks for the info. I had gotten all of the info but decided not to post it due to the lack of BROTHERS having an open mind. SOme good points were brought up in this forum, but some of the people that post are the same ones taking pictures of their helmets so everyone can see how dirty they are with 2/20. Stay safe.

    Now thats funny!

    Leave a comment:


  • capt4704
    replied
    Hey Mcaldwell, thanks for the info. I had gotten all of the info but decided not to post it due to the lack of BROTHERS having an open mind. SOme good points were brought up in this forum, but some of the people that post are the same ones taking pictures of their helmets so everyone can see how dirty they are with 2/20. Stay safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcaldwell
    replied
    Some of you know that I am the Safety Services Manager for a large resort developer, and I have 15 hotels and townhome complexes that I manage in my community, almost all with modern card lock systems.

    First off, let me put to rest the fear that a hotel door is in any way an unusual or difficult obstacle for a fire team. They are not. They are indeed better secured than many residential setups, and the best solid core or metal doors out there will be resistant to a good kick (especially with the integrated deadbolt thrown), but a haligan or even a small officers tool will make quick work of those ones. They are nothing compared to a rated exterior commercial door.

    They are intented to provide a detterence to common hotel room thieves only, but are mostly plastic and lightweight steel/aluminum parts for guts. You can either force the frame conventionally, or often just pry/knock the hall side cover off to reach the mortise mechanism. They are usually secured with only 4-6 screws through the door, and a simple screwdriver or multi-tool will then allow you to retract the bolt.

    It should be noted that most of the systems also have a hard key override, and that key should be waiting for you at the front desk when you arrive. If you don't have a knox box or similar setup, take the time to ask the Security Guard or Desk Agent for the Grand Master, and it can often save you the time of possibly forcing multiple doors.

    The hotel will always try to discourage you from forcing entry into a room, as the systems can be worth up to $2000 (to replace the door, frame, and lock). It is important to note though, that they are most commonly battery powered, and therefore will fail quickly in a fire, requiring you to force them anyway.


    My rule of thumb for our guys:

    If you can see/smell smoke or visible fire, or have a confirmed medical emergency, knock it down. If you can't, take your time and ask for the key. The hotel floor will have to be completely gutted and renovated if even a small amount of smoke/water damage occurs anyway.


    And if you want to play with one, go ask a local major hotel to show you how they are assembled, or possibly even donate an old broken one for training. They are really not that complex.

    Leave a comment:


  • FFFRED
    replied
    Originally posted by capt4704
    Alot of ideas, but what about controling the door. Going thru the sheetrock is an option, but what do you do you do if you have fire in that room? How will you control that? You cant take pieces of drywall and put it back in the hole you just made. What about the elderly person who has fallen in the room and it is an EMS run. Great P.R. smashing doors.
    Have an open hole? Need to control it...simple, look down the hall and remove the next apartments door or one from a closet or interior bedroom, anywhere...and slam that over the uncontroled opening.

    Great PR? If someone needs EMS attention...a door seems a bit of a trivial thing to be concerned about doesn't it? A lockset can be replaced...Grandma can't.

    FTM-PTB

    Leave a comment:


  • NDeMarse
    replied
    Originally posted by capt4704
    Alot of ideas, but what about controling the door. Going thru the sheetrock is an option, but what do you do you do if you have fire in that room? How will you control that? You cant take pieces of drywall and put it back in the hole you just made.
    If this was an issue: (normally it's not since a line would be there)

    I would enter the room that I forced as a point of refuge BEFORE forcing the room that is on fire. Then I would tear the bathroom door off of the hinges, drag it into the hallway and place it over the hole in the wall. It's not going to be an airtight seal, but it will do the trick to buy you time.

    I would have to say if the fire was going to vent out of this hole in the wall that the door would be showing some signs of fire and we probably wouldn't breach the wall. Fire around the frame, at the top or a cherry red or burning wooden door would be some of these signs.

    For an EMS run, I would probably wait for the keys (as the front desk would probably already know about the run) for a reasonable amount of time. If they didn't get there in a timely manner, then the door should be taken.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by capt4704
    Alot of ideas, but what about controling the door. Going thru the sheetrock is an option, but what do you do you do if you have fire in that room? How will you control that? You cant take pieces of drywall and put it back in the hole you just made. What about the elderly person who has fallen in the room and it is an EMS run. Great P.R. smashing doors.

    What about the PR about us taking 8 minutes to get in the door because someone was worried about ::::heaven forbid:::: a easily replaceable door!

    If you cant force a door conventionally, with the irons or the hydra ram, and control it if there is fire behind it, its time to drill.
    As for the EMS run, use your judgement. If you are on the 10th floor of a hotel, and there are numerous people who are sure Old Miss Betsy is in there, then by all means take the door.!

    Leave a comment:


  • capt4704
    replied
    Force

    Alot of ideas, but what about controling the door. Going thru the sheetrock is an option, but what do you do you do if you have fire in that room? How will you control that? You cant take pieces of drywall and put it back in the hole you just made. What about the elderly person who has fallen in the room and it is an EMS run. Great P.R. smashing doors.

    Leave a comment:


  • NDeMarse
    replied
    I think we will be just fine using conventional forcible entry or the bunny (rabbit) tool.

    This guy is probably trying to say, "come to the front desk and get this tool before you start breaking my doors" and just didn't know how to say it. However, the way he did say it states to most firefighters, "I want to be the first one to break this door". Silly him!

    There are several reasons to force the door but the most important one is in a fire condition. You don't want to attack a fire through a window since it will make the hallways (and maybe the stairs) untenable and further trap the occupants. Place the line between the occupants and the fire to protect them and the stairs.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcfd45
    replied
    yeah didja ever watch cops. how many times have we seen them beat down a door to go in. this salessman hasn't met an individual as determined as a firefighter. if we need to we will find a way into fort knox. if needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • doughesson
    replied
    Originally posted by FFFRED
    I'd like to see these locks and doors that can't be pried open. Sounds like a confiedent salesman.

    FTM-PTB
    Or someone who hasn't learned not to bet a FF that he can't do it.Hope he brings his wallet when someone calls him on it.

    Leave a comment:


  • RFDACM
    replied
    Originally posted by SSTONER
    This may be a dumb question so dont get to excited over it since I have not been to the fire academy yet.......

    Whats wrong with going through the window that usually in every hotel/motel room?
    What about attacking the fire within the room? This would kinda be an exterior attack if you entered from outside and pushed in.

    Leave a comment:


  • SSTONER
    replied
    Originally posted by Res343cue
    How you gonna get there if it's on say... the 10th floor? Even a 100 foot aerial won't be able to reach that once you take into consideration a set back.

    Ah! Well I had a motel 6 in mind I guess! We probaly have one Hotel in the city over 2 stories in the city - all the others are resorts here in Tucson. But I see what you are talking about.

    I was thinking your basic cheap hotel - ya know the one I can afford!

    Leave a comment:

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