Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Drill misses the bigger issue.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • FFFRED
    replied
    Originally posted by LFD131
    [I
    PHP Code:
    ][[I]QUOTE=manascl]Typicallyour engines force entry.  If we have a truck company that is first onthey will force entry for the arriving engine companyThey will then proceed to search and rescue only if they have a report of someone inside.  Otherwise they will put off a search until a line is in place.  If no one is reported missing and its not the middle of the night with cars in the drivewaythey would proceed to ventilation and all the other hundred things that truck companies have to do. 
    How can a truck company justify not searching unless told by somebody that there is a potential victim? If a building meant for human habitation is on fire CHANCES ARE THERE MIGHT BE SOMEBODY INSIDE! Also a building is unoccupied only after the fire department determines nobody is inside, and this can only be determined by our old friend the primary search. I am not advocating searching areas where there is no possibility of survivors due to untenable conditions( I am a big fan of self preservation.) Remember, time is working against you for rescue operations, and waiting for an engine company that can't find the building (wink, wink) isn't buying that victim any time. I work on a truck company that routinely searches ahead of the engine, and also gets the other hundred truck assignments done. Granted I don't know your truck staffing, but we run five guy's: officer and firefighter do forcble entry and primary search, operator and a firefighter are assigned to roof, and one firefighter assigned to outside vent. Obviously if you have less manpower you will get less assignments done, but a truck company operates the most efficiently when split up. Stay Safe.
    This is because too many so-called firemen today are led by poor excuses for officers and chiefs who completely disregard 100s of years of firefighting principles and practices in favor of their more "progressive" made up tactics and strategy. They have little real world experience and openly dispute or disregard any experience from departments that are (insert adjative here: larger, busier, more experience...etc.) Where will the fire service be in 30 years? God only knows with the clowns running the show in many places today.

    As for the staffing...if all you have is 3 men...all it takes is at least 3 men to split up on most dwelling fires in this country...one is the OVM and the other two do FE and Search(and vent from the inside). Search is the highest priority..not only for life, but fire as well. Along with clearing a path for the Engine there are plenty of things a Truck should be doing prior to the Engine starting a line. There should be no pause to determine from other civilians whether a occupant is still inside. It has been noted for the better part of a century that civilians are notoriously unreliable and should not be completely trusted.

    We are the fire department and only we determine if a Primary or Secondary is negative and complete, never a civilian.

    FTM-PTB

    Leave a comment:


  • LFD131
    replied
    [I
    PHP Code:
    ][[I]QUOTE=manascl]Typicallyour engines force entry.  If we have a truck company that is first onthey will force entry for the arriving engine companyThey will then proceed to search and rescue only if they have a report of someone inside.  Otherwise they will put off a search until a line is in place.  If no one is reported missing and its not the middle of the night with cars in the drivewaythey would proceed to ventilation and all the other hundred things that truck companies have to do. 
    How can a truck company justify not searching unless told by somebody that there is a potential victim? If a building meant for human habitation is on fire CHANCES ARE THERE MIGHT BE SOMEBODY INSIDE! Also a building is unoccupied only after the fire department determines nobody is inside, and this can only be determined by our old friend the primary search. I am not advocating searching areas where there is no possibility of survivors due to untenable conditions( I am a big fan of self preservation.) Remember, time is working against you for rescue operations, and waiting for an engine company that can't find the building (wink, wink) isn't buying that victim any time. I work on a truck company that routinely searches ahead of the engine, and also gets the other hundred truck assignments done. Granted I don't know your truck staffing, but we run five guy's: officer and firefighter do forcble entry and primary search, operator and a firefighter are assigned to roof, and one firefighter assigned to outside vent. Obviously if you have less manpower you will get less assignments done, but a truck company operates the most efficiently when split up. Stay Safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • JTFIRE80
    replied
    Originally posted by FFFRED
    Now, I read this introduction for a drill and one thing glared out at me like the lights from 20 buffed-out toyota corrola wacker mobiles!

    See if you can see where I would find problem not with the drill but what led up to it and what perhaps would be a better drill and a better discussion of proper fireground tactics from the senario presented?


    Company Level Training - Splicing And Extending An Attack Line
    What Would You Do If You Need More Line?

    ............
    LARRY MANASCO
    MembersZone Contributor
    Firehouse.Com Contributor



    The scenario: You are dispatched to a reported apartment fire at 0200 hours. Enroute, you learn there have been multiple calls reporting this fire. You arrive on scene and find a three-story, wood-frame apartment building with heavy smoke showing. You cannot determine what floor the smoke is coming from because the smoke is too heavy.

    You order your FIREFIGHTER on the apartment side of the engine to pull a two-inch attack line: it is a 200-foot pre-connected line. The FIREFIGHTER stretches the line through the breezeway to its full length, and then discovers that the fire is on the third floor of the building next door. What would you do and how efficiently do you think your crew would perform?

    FTM-PTB
    I can see all of your points, but how about the fact that only 1 firefighter was sent with the line!! To me, that's the biggest problem!!

    Leave a comment:


  • GFDLT1
    replied
    Originally posted by DrParasite
    I'm curious: we don't have breakapart nozzles, only fog nozzles. how would you propose adding hoselines? and would you add at the tip or at the pump?
    Like Bones said, buy new nozzles. I believe Elkhart or is it Acckrin (I know I just butchered their name) make a fog nozzle that you just shut off by closing nozzle and then unscrew the fog attachment. This leaves you with a 7/8'' smooth bore. You can also add hose to it.

    On our engines we have a garden apt lay that we use for apt's and schools. It consists of up to 400' of 3'' to a gated wye, from there we attach a 200' section of 1 3/4''. This works well for us. The 1st ff pulls the 1 3/4'' and the second ff pulls the needed 3'' with the assistance of the driver. For the vast majority of our apts we only need an additional 150 or 200' of 3'' added to the 1 3/4''. So we are talking about putting about 400' of hose on the ground.

    I wouldn't recommend laying out 400' of 1 3/4'' anytime. You are working your pump excessively when there is another solution. You are talking about running your pump at like 240 psi if you are using a 1 3/4'' nozzle or 200 psi if you are using a 1 1/2'' nozzle.
    Last edited by GFDLT1; 08-14-2006, 11:13 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • manascl
    replied
    In our situation there is no friction loss due to the fact that we are a CAFS engine. We could run a 2000' line and still have no friction loss. But we have used these extended lays only with trash and grass/brush fires. On a structure we would do exactly what Bones said. We came to this conclusion only after drilling on splicing into an existing line and then using the 2 1/2"/gated wye method. We found the gated wye method worked better and quicker and had the benefit of adding that second 1 3/4" line.

    Leave a comment:


  • t13one12
    replied
    Originally posted by Bones42
    How much water flow are we losing in a 400' 1 3/4" line due to friction loss? Wouldn't it be better to use your 200' 1 3/4" lines added onto 200' of 2 1/2"?

    If our preconnect's don't reach, and we know where they won't reach, we pull 2 1/2" to a gated wye, then put 1 3/4" line on that. If needed, we could add a second 1 3/4" line.
    Thats what I kept thinking as I read through this thread. I wasn't sure if it wasn't a widely used method but I'm glad to know someone else out there does the same stuff.

    We actually just did a drill on this stuff last week, how appropriate with the current conversation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    How much water flow are we losing in a 400' 1 3/4" line due to friction loss? Wouldn't it be better to use your 200' 1 3/4" lines added onto 200' of 2 1/2"?

    If our preconnect's don't reach, and we know where they won't reach, we pull 2 1/2" to a gated wye, then put 1 3/4" line on that. If needed, we could add a second 1 3/4" line.

    Leave a comment:


  • manascl
    replied
    We have four preconnected crosslays. Two of which are 2" lines and the other two are 1 3/4" lines. On one of the 1 3/4" lines, we have two hundred feet preconnected. But below that two hundred feet is another two hundred feet that is just a static load. So if we do need more, which we have on several occasions, we pull the preconnect, disconnect it, pull off however many sections below it that we need, connect it into the already pulled line, connect the other side into the discharge, and presto. Works well, but like anything, you still have to train on it to be as efficient as possible. Never heard of 1 3/4" on a hose reel. It's at the very least, interesting. Nice thought Mr. Ed (La.)
    Last edited by manascl; 08-13-2006, 10:03 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    One option is one that my old department in Vermont has been using for several years and I have seen more often is reels for you attack lines. In addition to (2) 200 1.75" preconnects in the rear bed, the last 3 trucks were ordered had (2) reels each loaded with 400' of 1.75" line over the pump panels (in the place of "tradional" booster lines). In situations where we needed less than 200" or more than the 200' preconnect, we would pull the line off the reel. Deployment time was about the same as the preconnects, and it gave us a tremendouys amount of flexability. Our two older pumpers were modified with one reel of 300'-350' of dry 1.75 and the other reel was left with booster (for brush fires). This may be an option for departments currently operating engines with booster reels.

    Another option is a dry stack of attack line (300'-400' with a nozzle) in the hosebed which could be pulled and connected in situations where the 200' PC might be enough. You could setup a bed of 200-250' of 2.5" or 3" with a wye as another option which could be quickly streched as a feeded line.

    On my current department, we carry (2) preconnects. While that works for us the vast majority of the time, if we need a longer line we must sacrifice the 2nd line as we carry no spare 1.75". That is a situation I am attempting to change (see above paragraph) but meeting reistance. Stay tuned.

    Leave a comment:


  • sts060
    replied
    FFRED, I didn't mean to imply that it's "acceptable" for a stretch to the wrong building to happen every now and then; I'm in violent agreement with you that it's not. But, like every other kind of screw-up that happens on the fireground, I can think up a plausible set of contributing circumstances (3rd due area, other units out of position, late night, fatigue, fog, swirling smoke/wind, inexperienced officer, etc.) So it's worth thinking about.

    Our engine co. officers are taught to do a 360 degree size-up (or at least a 270 for big-box stores, while 3rd due sizes up the back) to avoid things like this. Practicing approaches and laying out is part of this too (e.g., "hey, if we tell the truck company to hold up a few seconds, we could reverse lay from here and then everybody would have good position").

    And, finally, the drill to recover from the worst case, the screwup: a short stretch. We have 200' and 300' 1-3/4" preconnects with breakaway LP fogs, and 200' of 2" with a stack tip, so one solution would be to extend (from the end of the first stretch) up to 200' more with the standpipe and officer's bag. The other option, and the one we generally do anyway on our garden apts, is to (re)start at the engine and bring the bag(s) and the 3" leader line. That's two recovery options for Lt. Manasco's scenario; both are worth practicing.

    I don't have anything else to add, except that I have to deal with CRM if I want to advance - it's mandatory in our county. I don't try to overthink it; I just take with me the relevant principles, which I mentioned before.

    Thanks to everyone on the thread for the good viewpoints.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ltmdepas3280
    replied
    Sometimes, its the only option

    My job is a very small city department (6 men on duty per day) and we use preconnects for our first lines (200' of 1-3/4). For the 99% of the jobs we get, the crosslay works fine but on the odd occassion that we need more line or we stretch short( hasn't happened yet) the pump operator adds line at the pump. We do drill this senario and double dount several rolls of hose for that purpose.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    I'm curious: we don't have breakapart nozzles, only fog nozzles. how would you propose adding hoselines? and would you add at the tip or at the pump?
    You won't like my answer. Change nozzles. Get the breakaparts. Give you the best of both worlds. The other company in my town had something that looked like a big coupling on their handlines. It had a twist shutoff that would allow them to stop the water flow, remove the nozzle, add hose, and then open back up. 1 or 2 times, it got closed and the nozzleman wasn't getting any water when attacking a fire.

    However, in the odd reason that you can't change your nozzles out, I'd shut it down at the engine and add from there. That's where the extra hose is so you don't have to travel back and forth as much. Nozzleman (or officer) can call back to engine and say I need another 1 or 2 lengths (or whatever) and the operator can pull it off the truck and "splice" it in.

    Leave a comment:


  • drparasite
    replied
    Originally posted by FFFRED
    This is also in my opinion something that should change if it is an accepted manner of performance on the fireground. If your Engines have nothing more than preconnected lines, then your chiefs or Appratus committies have let you down...from this point on your department should look to have both preconected lines and a static bed from which to take hose from should you come up short. And from working in a suburban FD and Rural FD I know this occurs often enough that it is a problem.
    Sorry, I think I was unclear when I mentioned my preconnected lines. In addition to our preconnects, we have a static bed of 2 inch attack hose, 3 inch attack hose, and 5 inch supply. but like Bones just said, 99% of our fires are handled (at least the first line or two) by the preconnects.
    As for the scenario presented above, we have break apart nozzles so we would shut the nozzle, unscrew the tip and add lengths there. I am NOT a fan of shutting the line down at the engine to add more hose.
    I'm curious: we don't have breakapart nozzles, only fog nozzles. how would you propose adding hoselines? and would you add at the tip or at the pump?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    FFFred, well stated.

    Having both options on the engine is what we do. And then actually training/drilling using both. Nothing worse than calling for the long stretch and guys standing there looking at each other trying to figure out what to do.

    I'd figure about 99% of my fires, when we stretch a line, our preconnects are perfect. But we still train/drill for that other 1%.


    As for the scenario presented above, we have break apart nozzles so we would shut the nozzle, unscrew the tip and add lengths there. I am NOT a fan of shutting the line down at the engine to add more hose. I also question what manpower may be available to stretch another line. (but then again, we are one of the departments that sends truckies to find the fire first - and on occaision, the engine officer has had to do that quick search)

    Leave a comment:


  • FFFRED
    replied
    Originally posted by DrParasite
    Fred,
    As much as this may shock you, not every department has the truck crew search for the fire. in my department, 9 times out of 10, the engine company is the first crew on scene, as well as the first one to make entry into the structure. our truck company splits its crew into two main tasks, search and rescue, and ventilation.
    No it doesn't, I've worked for 2 other departments and vollied in another, other than my current dept and also worked closely with a number of surounding depts that responded mutual aid on runs with us. I understand that, however since you don't have a Truck doing this, someone has to. Simply not searching out the location of the fire completely before committing ones self by stretching 100s of feet of hose is nothing short of being negligent in ones duty. This is simple basic fire fighting tactics going back a century and it is taught over and over in every text I've seen.

    The reason I brought this issue to light is that in my experience during post fire reviews many firemen (a number of whom were very experinced) didn't see the failure of our procedures when we stretched before finding the best access to the fire, or when, because of not having tools assigned, not one man brought the appropriate tool(a hook) to expose fire in the cockloft....etc.

    we also use 2 inch hose as our primary attack line. it gives almost as much water as a 2 1/2, but is easier to handle. or so I am told. we also use fog nozzles on all our hoses, for reasons i'm not sure i completely agree with (but that's another story).
    I have no beef with that.(at least in this thread )

    as for the oriignal post, I think it's a major scrw up to stretch a line into the wrong building. totally inexcusable. you need to size up the scene before you pull lines. if a line is to short, eh, it happens. should it happen? no. but when you rely exclusively on preconnects it happens. but if you do stretch into the correct structure, and learn that it is too short, I would immediately request a longer hoseline to be stretched, and use that as my primary attack line. my last resort would be to pull additional lengths off the bed, and add them to the uncharged line back at the pump panel (assuming you didn't charge the line without knowing where the fire was).
    This is also in my opinion something that should change if it is an accepted manner of performance on the fireground. If your Engines have nothing more than preconnected lines, then your chiefs or Appratus committies have let you down...from this point on your department should look to have both preconected lines and a static bed from which to take hose from should you come up short. And from working in a suburban FD and Rural FD I know this occurs often enough that it is a problem.

    Stretching short is nothing less than unprofesional and makes you, your company and your dept look like a bunch of incompetent dopes. Wearing pants in lieu of shorts, wearing a nice pressed class A shirt with all the brass bells and whistles (or any of that other stuff we disscused in another thread) won't matter to Joe Q Public when you are jerking around with adding hose on, because you are unable without delay to stretch to a building that exists in your 1st Due district.

    My Engine is laid out to be able to reach any point in any building in my first due and still make it to the hydrant, without delay and without splicing hose together. Does that mean you need my Engine...no. But if all you have is 200' preconected lines and you have garden apartments that would require a 400' stretch for the first due Engine...then one needs to re-examine their hose bed and how it is arranged.

    Furthermore ones members should also be skilled at estimating the amount of hose and should be able to do so without the officers guidance. Even if you have nothing but preconects...you should still know if you are going to come up short on a stretch and begin working on a solution before the short stretch in complete, not when you are two rooms in deep and one room short of extinguishing the fire.

    These are traits and skills of profesional firemen who take their job and responsiblities seriously. I can't understand justification for anything less.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 08-11-2006, 07:56 AM.

    Leave a comment:

300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

Collapse

Upper 300x250

Collapse

Taboola

Collapse

Leader

Collapse
Working...
X