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Drill misses the bigger issue.

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  • #16
    That is a skill that my crew practiced a week and a half ago. We tried pulling a line and splicing into it. We then tried pulling a 2 1/2" and connecting into our high-rise pack. We could then have the next company come in after a supply line has been laid and take a 100' section of 1 3/4", connect to the gated wye and presto, second attack line or back up line if the fire is small. We have a 100' section of 1 3/4" in our bumper that we have loaded where it can be either deployed or easily loaded over someone's shoulder to be taken wherever it needs to go. Good idea. Now I can't claim to have invented that little jewel. Kidding, I know it's been around for a while.

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    • #17
      The overriding point that I try to make in the articles that I write is this, there are always different ways of doing things. I'm not saying one way works better than another. I want people to open their minds, listen to what other people do, try it out for themselves, and find out what works best for their crew. Then practice it consistently. By trying different methods, we not only learn what works best for us, but we also come up with alternate ways of operating. That way when what we always do fails, we have some idea of a backup plan.
      Last edited by manascl; 08-19-2006, 09:00 AM.

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      • #18
        I have to disagree at the difficulty of the way I discribed. If your members are trained (and they better be) it is a simple process. The Engine company in my house practices it on a regular basis, and it is very quick and very simple. As with anything on this job, everyone should be on the same page, if they are not, do it until they are.

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        • #19
          I can see everyone's point.
          Last edited by manascl; 08-16-2006, 07:42 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MattyJ
            The biggest mistake I see is stretching a line before knowing where the fire is. Simply walking around the building does not automatically find the fire location for you. As many of us have stated before....you need to send somebody in to locate the fire BEFORE you stretch your line.

            Im no fan of preconnected lines....but thats another debate....but to answer the question....after you've made the mistake of stretching prematurly, and there is a need to increase the lenth of the line....very simple (at least for us)...with the nozzle closed (not shutting down the line at the pump), remove the main stream tip from the nozzle (leaving just the shut off), add the needed lenths to the nozzle shut off, add a new nozzle to the last lenth and then open the 1st nozzle...simple.
            MattyJ,

            That is exactly what I found as the biggest lesson to be learned from this drill...not how to correct the error...but how to AVOID it in the first place.

            Locate-Confine-Extinguish...I've been part of the same mistake in a former dept that didn't stress this time honored traditional method of fire control and know first hand what happens when you ignore this sound advice.

            All the other stuff IMHO can be debated at length but to order a line started before the true location of the fire is known is inexcusible and along with the second due stretching past you...a long talk and possible transfer would be in the future for an officer around here.

            FTM-PTB
            Last edited by FFFRED; 08-09-2006, 09:27 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by manascl
              You just made one of my main points. It is easy for your engine company "because they practice it on a regular basis". You would be surprised to know how few companies and departments as a whole, do not have any type of company level training. My department does not. Mine is the only company that does training on a regular basis (out of 40 stations with three shifts). The other shifts at my station don't even do it. I have been told that we are going to be required, as a department, to start. But I will believe it when I see it. We are very fortunate not to have killed anybody in the past twenty years.
              It is inexcusable for any fire company to not drill on a regular basis. Drilling should be on the basics, the alternatives when the basics dont work, and on handling the likely worst case scenerios such as this. Any company that does'nt is a joke and is kidding themselves if they think they are prepared. Whats worse is they are cheating their "Brothers" and the civilians they claim to protect from quality fire service. Keep leading by example Lt. Manasco, hopefully the others will catch on.

              FFred...what can I say....were always on the same page.

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              • #22
                Once again, I appreciate everyone's comments. Let me know what you think of any article that I write. I never have claimed to be the end all, be all on anything. I just want to put something out there that can help everyone. That's why I ask for the feedback. I want to know if something I say is wrong, if there is a different way of doing it or if there is a better way of doing things. Someone has to put these things out to everyone. Otherwise we only know what is directly associated with us. We miss out on the bigger picture that is out there.
                Thanks to everyone, even FFred. Sorry, had to take a shot. Everyone have a good night and be safe.

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                • #23
                  Obviously the line size in this scenario is irrelevant to the fact that they stretched into the wrong building. SIZE-UP!!


                  As for the comments made about 2 inch hose my FD uses 2 inch hose and we flow 300 gpm out to 300 feet on preconnects and out to 600 feet off from a 3 inch apartment line set-up. Most interior work with 2 1/2's that I have seen use either 1 1/8 tips or 250 combo nozzles. So in our situation our flows are greater than most 2 1/2's with less work to get it in place. Is it the answer for everyone? NOPE, but don;t dismiss it if you have never used it. It works great for us.

                  FyredUp
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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                  • #24
                    My experience with 2" line has been, IMO, less favorable than Fryed. About 20 years ago, the department I was on used 2" as thier primary attack line. While I will not dispute that the flow it provided was certainly a benefit, I found the line to be extremly difficult to manevuer around a tight residence, especially during the daytime when we were operating with minimum staffing.
                    Not only was it heavy, but it was also very cumbersome and I found it tough to make hard bends, especially up stairwells. It easily required a full 3 man hose team to make a rapid advance, and on occasion, depending on the layout of the stairs, required a 4 man crew to effectivly advance it to the 2nd floor or attic. Of course, we operated with a fog nozzle requiring 100 PSI at the tip, which certainly made the line "firmer" than if we were operating it with a 50 PSI smooth-bore.

                    It was an effective line for making attacks in commercial or open structures such as garages or barns, and the flow was certainly an advantage on those types of fires. Fires in larger vehicles such as trucks or construction equipment was also a nice fit for the 2".

                    That department switched over to 1.75" attack lines shortly after I left. they still kept the 2" on the truck for several years as a heavy attack line.

                    The department I left in Vermont in 2002 to come here has recently begun switching to 2" attack lines from 1.75". It was a decision they made based on the increasing size, and corresponding fire load, of the new construction in town.
                    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by manascl
                      Hello boys and girls. Let me try to respond to some of the comments so that people can start to pick their jaws off of the ground. The first part of this article is a hypothetical situation. It was formed by some training that my crew has done at one of our apartments in our first due area. This exact situation has not occured.
                      Fort Worth uses 2" lines, along with 1 3/4" and 2 1/2". If you have not used a 2", you should look into it. When you have a heavy fire load or potentially heavy fire load in a residential structure, an 1 3/4" line is not sufficient. A 2 1/2" is entirely too cumbersome to be pulling through a house. A 2" is a perfect solution. Quite a bit more water than an 1 3/4" and not near as heavy as a 2 1/2".
                      .

                      Lt. Larry Manasco
                      We use 1 3/4 in heavy fire in residential structures. It appears to work quite well. 180 gpm can take down a lot of fire.
                      Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by LaFireEducator
                        Actually this situation, if assessed correctly at the beginning would be a perfect scenerio for a high rise pack. Stretch a 2.5" or 3" to the landing on the second floor then gate off to (2) 1.75" lines. Strech a 2.5" or 3" as a backup when manpower permits
                        Thats what we do on these types of buildings. Stretch the proper length of 3" and wye into the hi-rise pack (ours is 200' of 2" hose). After we do a proper size-up and locate the fire .
                        Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                        IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                        "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                        RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                        Success is when skill meets opportunity
                        Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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                        • #27
                          Similar situation for us - we have a lot of garden apartments with big open stairwells, some standpiped, some not. 3" leader line stretch + 150' of 1-3/4" in the standpipe bag + 50' in the officer's pack is a primary option.

                          As far as the drill goes, I understand the necessity of proper size-up, but it is conceivable that you can get fooled. So work on not only avoiding the mistake, but on being able to recover quickly from the mistake, no?

                          Look at it from the Crew Resource Management perspective - we're getting CRM drummed into us - and it fits:
                          - Recognize the problem (proper size-up)
                          - Trap the problem (size-up by units arriving on the far side of a big complex, or somebody on your own crew noticing what's going on)
                          - Mitigate the problem (the first two didn't work, you came up short, your engine is committed to its position, your next due engine is still minutes away; how are you gonna get water on the fire?)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by manascl
                            Once again, I appreciate everyone's comments. Let me know what you think of any article that I write. I never have claimed to be the end all, be all on anything. I just want to put something out there that can help everyone. That's why I ask for the feedback. I want to know if something I say is wrong, if there is a different way of doing it or if there is a better way of doing things. Someone has to put these things out to everyone. Otherwise we only know what is directly associated with us. We miss out on the bigger picture that is out there.
                            Thanks to everyone, even FFred. Sorry, had to take a shot. Everyone have a good night and be safe.
                            Actually this turned out to be a good discussion that makes everyone think. I'd say you succeeded.
                            IACOJ Member

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by sts060
                              Similar situation for us - we have a lot of garden apartments with big open stairwells, some standpiped, some not. 3" leader line stretch + 150' of 1-3/4" in the standpipe bag + 50' in the officer's pack is a primary option.

                              As far as the drill goes, I understand the necessity of proper size-up, but it is conceivable that you can get fooled. So work on not only avoiding the mistake, but on being able to recover quickly from the mistake, no?

                              Look at it from the Crew Resource Management perspective - we're getting CRM drummed into us - and it fits:
                              - Recognize the problem (proper size-up)
                              - Trap the problem (size-up by units arriving on the far side of a big complex, or somebody on your own crew noticing what's going on)
                              - Mitigate the problem (the first two didn't work, you came up short, your engine is committed to its position, your next due engine is still minutes away; how are you gonna get water on the fire?)
                              Not sure how it is concievable to stretch into the wrong building if the members search out and determine the location of the fire prior to committing a handline to a certain stairway that only acesses that area?

                              As for this "Crew Resource Management" stuff you speak of...try not to make this job too complicated with unnecesarrily fancy terms and concepts.

                              If you perform the actions as the senario presents then take the nozzle off that line....drop the hose and return to the bed and stretch again, breaking the line at the most convienent location and attaching the nozzle there...and this time, stretch to the correct location. Jerking around with the last line you stretched will get you nowhere fast.

                              KISS

                              FTM-PTB

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                              • #30
                                Wow. I think ya'll missed the point here.
                                This was a problem solving drill I believe...we were presented a problem and had to solve it. Where I am, we have all preconnects with nothing longer than 250 feet. Doesn't do us any good on the long distances, but it's our SOP. We keep 100 foot leng hoses on the side that we use to make the hose longer.
                                Thanks Lt. Mansco...very informative.

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