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Anyone running 2" as working length on 2 1/2"

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  • Anyone running 2" as working length on 2 1/2"

    Recently purchased 2" hose and replaced some of our attack lines. Have been playing with different nozzles, flows and etc. Was wondering if setting up a 2 1/2" reduced to 2" for the last 100' of working length with say 1 1/8" SB is something anyone is using?

    In theory it sounds good, flow works out with our standard pump pressures but would like some feedback from anyone who has tried it. The increased flow over a 2" preconnect with 1 1/16" tip would be nice and the added maneuverability of the working length being 2" would be great. Just not sure how it would pull, etc.
    Firefighter/CCEMT-P
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

  • #2
    If anyone is curious we did some flow testing with it today, worked well with the 1 1/8" but supplied a 1 1/4" SB tip very nicely. We are gonna load it off the rear of our attack engine and give it a go. Still interested in any feedback should anyone have any.
    Firefighter/CCEMT-P
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

    Comment


    • #3
      What is the advantage of the 2.5"? I assume just the reduced friction loss, but are you finding that even necessary with the 2" hose? Maybe you're intending on replacing the 2.5" line with that hybrid using the 1 1/4" tip? I'd be interested to know the handling characteristics of the 2 1/2 to 2" with 1 1/4" tip flowing 325 gpm.

      All the combinations we've tried and seen, we still maintain 1.75" with the 15/16" or a Vindicator and the 2 1/2" with 1 1/4" tip. We find there's a clear difference and crews know when each is the appropriate choice. Clearly moving from 1.5 to 1.75" made sense due to the realistic flows we need, but continually growing the line seems to add work when we're struggling to staff positions. Even a minute increase in workload isn't good when you're starting behind the curve and trying to get water on the fire quickly. Like always, your mileage may vary from ours.

      Comment


      • #4
        Why use the 2 1/2 at all unless you are going over 300 feet? We use 2 inch as our only handline since for well over a decade now. We have 200 and 300 foot preconnects with 200 gpm at 75 psi combo nozzles backed by a 1 1/4 inch slug tip. We flow 160 gpm at 55 at the tip for the combo, obviously 200 gpm at 75 at the tip and then if we need more we screw off the combo tip and go to around 300 gpm at just over 40 psi at the tip.

        If we are going over 300 feet we use a 500 foot deadlay 3 inch line with a gated wye and 100 feet of 2 inch connected. we have an additional bundle of 100 feet of 2 inch with a nozzle to add a second line if needed.
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
          What is the advantage of the 2.5"? I assume just the reduced friction loss, but are you finding that even necessary with the 2" hose? Maybe you're intending on replacing the 2.5" line with that hybrid using the 1 1/4" tip? I'd be interested to know the handling characteristics of the 2 1/2 to 2" with 1 1/4" tip flowing 325 gpm.

          All the combinations we've tried and seen, we still maintain 1.75" with the 15/16" or a Vindicator and the 2 1/2" with 1 1/4" tip. We find there's a clear difference and crews know when each is the appropriate choice. Clearly moving from 1.5 to 1.75" made sense due to the realistic flows we need, but continually growing the line seems to add work when we're struggling to staff positions. Even a minute increase in workload isn't good when you're starting behind the curve and trying to get water on the fire quickly. Like always, your mileage may vary from ours.
          We regularly use 2 inch hose with 2 people on the line. It is not much different than moving 1 3/4 inch hose, especially today when 1 3/4 inch hose is actually 1.88 or greater in size. The flow capability of a 2 1/2 with the lighter weight of just about a 1 3/4 inch line makes it a great choice for understaffed departments.
          Crazy, but that's how it goes
          Millions of people living as foes
          Maybe it's not too late
          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

          Comment


          • #6
            Like FyredUp says, using 2" preconnects probably does not warrant the increased hose size unless the lay is 300 ft. or more. Using a 1 1/4" sb tip at 50 psi. flows 325 (+/-) gpm and a 300 ft of 2 1/2 and another 100 ft. of 2" would require an Engine Pressure of 213 PSI. Reducing the tip to 1 1/8" reduces the flow to 265 gpm. with the resulting engine pressure of 158 psi. Dropping the 1 1/4" tip pressure to 40 psi reduces the E.P. to 180 psi. However it also reduces effective reach from 70 feet to about 60 feet. This would not mean much in a residential fire, but in a warehouse setting or other high ceiling type structure it could make a difference. Incidentally a 200 ft. preconnect of 2" using a 1 1/4" tip needs an E.P. of 218 psi, while a 1 1/8" tip on the same 2" preconnect needs an E.P. of 162 psi. Nozzle kick-back on the 1 1/4" tip would be 122 lbs. while the 1 1/8" tip has a reaction force of 97 lbs.

            Comment


            • #7
              The problem with your calculations is they use the old C(QxQ)L formula and do not take into account different styles and manufacture of hose. We are well below 218 psi EP flowing 300 gpm for 200 feet and not exceeding 250 psi EP to do 300 at 300 feet. We tested using a flow meter and pitot gauge to set our flows so we are confident that our engine pressures are right.

              The nozzle reaction is the same whether the hose is 2 inch or 2 1/2 so I'm not sure what point you were making there.

              We have been using this set-up for well over a decade and the difference in reach has not been an issue. It might be for some.

              Honestly 2 inch hose may not be the answer if your staffing allows you to assemble 3 to 5 people to drag a 2 1/2 inch line around inside of a structure. Ours does not. Hence the 2 inch was a good compromise for us. Hose that was essentially no harder to move than 1 3/4 inch hose and could flow, with some additional engine pressure, what a 2 1/2 does. For us it was a win win.
              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                We regularly use 2 inch hose with 2 people on the line. It is not much different than moving 1 3/4 inch hose, especially today when 1 3/4 inch hose is actually 1.88 or greater in size. The flow capability of a 2 1/2 with the lighter weight of just about a 1 3/4 inch line makes it a great choice for understaffed departments.
                I trust your experience has proven this works well. In our testing and experience we've found that underpumping smoothbore tipped lines (<50 psi) lead to much more kinking issues requiring more work for those behind the nozzle firefighter. Given the use of fog nozzle at 75 or 100 psi this would probably be a lesser issue, but alas, we start with smoothbores and Vindicators using the 50 psi nozzle pressure.

                I will half agree that the flow capability is similar to a 2 1/2" at normal handline flows. We all know a 2 1/2" is capable of greater flows, though it becomes less manageable by a hose team.

                In the end:
                If you increase the hose size, you increase flow capability but also increase the workload
                If you decrease the hose size, you lose flow and but reduce the workload
                What is acceptable depends on how you operate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post

                  I trust your experience has proven this works well. In our testing and experience we've found that underpumping smoothbore tipped lines (<50 psi) lead to much more kinking issues requiring more work for those behind the nozzle firefighter. Given the use of fog nozzle at 75 or 100 psi this would probably be a lesser issue, but alas, we start with smoothbores and Vindicators using the 50 psi nozzle pressure.

                  I will half agree that the flow capability is similar to a 2 1/2" at normal handline flows. We all know a 2 1/2" is capable of greater flows, though it becomes less manageable by a hose team.

                  In the end:
                  If you increase the hose size, you increase flow capability but also increase the workload
                  If you decrease the hose size, you lose flow and but reduce the workload
                  What is acceptable depends on how you operate.
                  We have not had a serious issue with kinking but we do make sure people know to watch for and kick kinks not just walk by them. We stress the last guy on the line's job is to make sure there are no kinks as they move forward.

                  As we have been doing this for many years with no clamor to go back to 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 inch hose I would state that for us it works.
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                    What is the advantage of the 2.5"? I assume just the reduced friction loss, but are you finding that even necessary with the 2" hose? Maybe you're intending on replacing the 2.5" line with that hybrid using the 1 1/4" tip? I'd be interested to know the handling characteristics of the 2 1/2 to 2" with 1 1/4" tip flowing 325 gpm.

                    All the combinations we've tried and seen, we still maintain 1.75" with the 15/16" or a Vindicator and the 2 1/2" with 1 1/4" tip. We find there's a clear difference and crews know when each is the appropriate choice. Clearly moving from 1.5 to 1.75" made sense due to the realistic flows we need, but continually growing the line seems to add work when we're struggling to staff positions. Even a minute increase in workload isn't good when you're starting behind the curve and trying to get water on the fire quickly. Like always, your mileage may vary from ours.
                    I would agree that 2" hose is capable of such flows without using the 2 1/2" for what we are attempting to do. However, over the past several years we have developed hose and nozzle combinations for our preconnects that use the same pump pressure. As we are a smaller volunteer department and cannot always count on a top notch pump operator to be at the helm of the engine. Our preconnect attack hoses all operate at the same PDP with the only variable being elevation +/-. The KISS method is being employed here, it works for us and eliminates alot of confusion.

                    Our 2" preconnects are set-up to run us 200-240 GPM, during testing with kinks and/or under pumping we still achieved 170+ GPM which is a built in safety factor. All of our nozzles are 50 PSI operating pressure whether its a fog or smooth bore.

                    Placing this new split line into service gets us a 325 GPM line that is still easily manageable by 2 firefighters and allows us to convert a 2 1/2" dead load with gated wye and hose pack for extended operations in apartment complex's and the like. This hybrid line handled very well and all of our personnel at training were pleased with its performance.

                    Considering 5 years ago we were using 100 PSI auto's and significantly under pumping them creating a usable fire flow of about 90 GPM with 1 3/4" hose, I am happy with what we have achieved. One thing I have learned through this whole process is that many departments grossly over-estimate what they are flowing and few do the homework and test what they are using. We have only had the 2" hose for about three years and we have barely scratched the surface of what we can do with it. There is limited information available on this size hose and until a few months ago we used it very little outside of training. Our department is phasing out all 1 3/4" in favor of 2" except for trash lines.
                    Last edited by 911WACKER; 09-25-2018, 10:45 AM.
                    Firefighter/CCEMT-P
                    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The real question you have to ask yourself...If 2 inch hose isn't a good idea why are most manufacturers stretching their 1 3/4 to almost 2 inches and calling it low friction loss 1 3/4 inch hose?
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You guys have it so good. We still run 1.5" with 100 gpm combination nozzles. Can't get them to change anything. I even ran tests with a donated low pressure nozzle underpumped to get 150 gpm at about the same pump pressure as the current setup. While it opened an eye or two, we will never change because "we've always done it that way", "costs too much", yadda yadda yadda. I've recommended making changes one step at a time so that we don't put much of a dent in our yearly budget. (Thanks FyredUp for suggesting the under pumped LP nozzles can do some damage with a 1.5" line). First, buy low pressure nozzles and get our 150 gpm with 1.5" lines. Then as we take old sections of 1.5" out of service, replace it with 1.75" even if it's just a single preconnect at a time so that we can cut down on friction loss and gain gpm. No dice. I'm jealous of your depts that will actually entertain the idea of improving. With our lack of willingness to change even a few nozzles, I'm sure not going to bring up 2" lines or smooth bores!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yeah it gets even cooler now. Elkhart makes a 160 gpm at 50 psi combo nozzle. Why is that cool? because it is the same flow and nozzle pressure as a 7/8 inch smooth bore. Both of which will work on a 1 1/2 inch line. Takes around 170 psi engine pressure but it will work without having to change hose size.

                          I agree that when you replace the 1 1/2 inch hose going to 1 3/4 makes sense but just make sure the hose is OBVIOUSLY not 1 1/2. Different color, 100 foot lengths, something to differentiate from the 1 1/2 lines.
                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                            Yeah it gets even cooler now. Elkhart makes a 160 gpm at 50 psi combo nozzle.
                            The Chief XD's are awesome- we just got 2 of them for our primary attack engine. Integrated 15/16" smoothbore in the shutoff, and the fog tip screws on beyond that. Both setups are rated for 50 psi at the nozzle; 185 gpm smoothbore and I think 175 (or was it 170?) for the fog tip. When we demo'd the nozzle, we noticed better stream appearance with the integrated smoothbore alone vs a 15/16" stream straightener tip beyond the bale. They sure beat the heck out of the old Akron SaberJets they replaced...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                              I agree that when you replace the 1 1/2 inch hose going to 1 3/4 makes sense but just make sure the hose is OBVIOUSLY not 1 1/2. Different color, 100 foot lengths, something to differentiate from the 1 1/2 lines.
                              I'm afraid that a change may not happen during my lifetime, much less my career.

                              Comment

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