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Anyone running 2" as working length on 2 1/2"

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  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    Ta gots to do what ya gots to do.

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  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by drparasite View Post
    even worse is when changes doesn't happen when you suggest the idea, but when someone else suggest the idea, those in white hats think it's a great idea and tell you to implement it.
    At one of my career FDs I used to feed ideas to a senior MPO so they would have some weight. He would pass them on as his ideas and next thing I know it was being implemented. Got what I wanted done. I just did not get the credit.

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  • drparasite
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

    Isn't it a morale killer to realize that change won't occur until certain people retire or quit?
    even worse is when changes doesn't happen when you suggest the idea, but when someone else suggest the idea, those in white hats think it's a great idea and tell you to implement it.

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  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by captnjak View Post

    Especially when if they really are flowing 100GPM in a so-called firefighting stream. Recipe for disaster IMO.
    I get where you are coming from with that. We went from 125 gpm 1 1/2 inch lines to 160/200/300 2 inch lines.

    It makes me cringe when I see flows like that, especially now when people are flowing 20 gpm or less with UHP.

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  • captnjak
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

    Isn't it a morale killer to realize that change won't occur until certain people retire or quit?
    Especially when if they really are flowing 100GPM in a so-called firefighting stream. Recipe for disaster IMO.

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  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by tbzep View Post
    I'm afraid that a change may not happen during my lifetime, much less my career.
    Isn't it a morale killer to realize that change won't occur until certain people retire or quit?

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  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by dfelix22000us View Post
    The Chief XD's are awesome- we just got 2 of them for our primary attack engine. Integrated 15/16" smoothbore in the shutoff, and the fog tip screws on beyond that. Both setups are rated for 50 psi at the nozzle; 185 gpm smoothbore and I think 175 (or was it 170?) for the fog tip. When we demo'd the nozzle, we noticed better stream appearance with the integrated smoothbore alone vs a 15/16" stream straightener tip beyond the bale. They sure beat the heck out of the old Akron SaberJets they replaced...
    We have older Elkhart 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles with a 1 1/4 slug tip on our 2 inch lines. We underpump the combo tip to 55 psi to get 160 gpm, of course can dop 200 gpm at 75 psi and if that isn't enough spin off the combo tip and do 300 ay just over 40 psi with the slug tip.

    We have been using this set up for almost 2 decades and there is no clamor to go back to 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 inch lines.

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  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    We are in the process of replacing all of our 1 1/2" attack lines with 1 3/4" lines at one of my VFDs. It took some convincing but finally the Chief bought into my suggestion. . In addition we are purchasing 150gpm/50psi nozzles and 7/8" smoothbores for our crosslays. To the best of my knowledge, we will be the only department running with smoothbores on our 1 3/4" lines in this area.

    We will have one smoothbore crosslay and one combination crosslay on each engine. One one engine we have a foam crosslay, which will be a combination nozzle and the bumper-mounted car fire line will be a smoothbore.

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  • tbzep
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    I agree that when you replace the 1 1/2 inch hose going to 1 3/4 makes sense but just make sure the hose is OBVIOUSLY not 1 1/2. Different color, 100 foot lengths, something to differentiate from the 1 1/2 lines.
    I'm afraid that a change may not happen during my lifetime, much less my career.

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  • dfelix22000us
    replied
    Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yeah it gets even cooler now. Elkhart makes a 160 gpm at 50 psi combo nozzle.
    The Chief XD's are awesome- we just got 2 of them for our primary attack engine. Integrated 15/16" smoothbore in the shutoff, and the fog tip screws on beyond that. Both setups are rated for 50 psi at the nozzle; 185 gpm smoothbore and I think 175 (or was it 170?) for the fog tip. When we demo'd the nozzle, we noticed better stream appearance with the integrated smoothbore alone vs a 15/16" stream straightener tip beyond the bale. They sure beat the heck out of the old Akron SaberJets they replaced...

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    Yeah it gets even cooler now. Elkhart makes a 160 gpm at 50 psi combo nozzle. Why is that cool? because it is the same flow and nozzle pressure as a 7/8 inch smooth bore. Both of which will work on a 1 1/2 inch line. Takes around 170 psi engine pressure but it will work without having to change hose size.

    I agree that when you replace the 1 1/2 inch hose going to 1 3/4 makes sense but just make sure the hose is OBVIOUSLY not 1 1/2. Different color, 100 foot lengths, something to differentiate from the 1 1/2 lines.

    Leave a comment:


  • tbzep
    replied
    You guys have it so good. We still run 1.5" with 100 gpm combination nozzles. Can't get them to change anything. I even ran tests with a donated low pressure nozzle underpumped to get 150 gpm at about the same pump pressure as the current setup. While it opened an eye or two, we will never change because "we've always done it that way", "costs too much", yadda yadda yadda. I've recommended making changes one step at a time so that we don't put much of a dent in our yearly budget. (Thanks FyredUp for suggesting the under pumped LP nozzles can do some damage with a 1.5" line). First, buy low pressure nozzles and get our 150 gpm with 1.5" lines. Then as we take old sections of 1.5" out of service, replace it with 1.75" even if it's just a single preconnect at a time so that we can cut down on friction loss and gain gpm. No dice. I'm jealous of your depts that will actually entertain the idea of improving. With our lack of willingness to change even a few nozzles, I'm sure not going to bring up 2" lines or smooth bores!

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    The real question you have to ask yourself...If 2 inch hose isn't a good idea why are most manufacturers stretching their 1 3/4 to almost 2 inches and calling it low friction loss 1 3/4 inch hose?

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  • 911WACKER
    replied
    Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    What is the advantage of the 2.5"? I assume just the reduced friction loss, but are you finding that even necessary with the 2" hose? Maybe you're intending on replacing the 2.5" line with that hybrid using the 1 1/4" tip? I'd be interested to know the handling characteristics of the 2 1/2 to 2" with 1 1/4" tip flowing 325 gpm.

    All the combinations we've tried and seen, we still maintain 1.75" with the 15/16" or a Vindicator and the 2 1/2" with 1 1/4" tip. We find there's a clear difference and crews know when each is the appropriate choice. Clearly moving from 1.5 to 1.75" made sense due to the realistic flows we need, but continually growing the line seems to add work when we're struggling to staff positions. Even a minute increase in workload isn't good when you're starting behind the curve and trying to get water on the fire quickly. Like always, your mileage may vary from ours.
    I would agree that 2" hose is capable of such flows without using the 2 1/2" for what we are attempting to do. However, over the past several years we have developed hose and nozzle combinations for our preconnects that use the same pump pressure. As we are a smaller volunteer department and cannot always count on a top notch pump operator to be at the helm of the engine. Our preconnect attack hoses all operate at the same PDP with the only variable being elevation +/-. The KISS method is being employed here, it works for us and eliminates alot of confusion.

    Our 2" preconnects are set-up to run us 200-240 GPM, during testing with kinks and/or under pumping we still achieved 170+ GPM which is a built in safety factor. All of our nozzles are 50 PSI operating pressure whether its a fog or smooth bore.

    Placing this new split line into service gets us a 325 GPM line that is still easily manageable by 2 firefighters and allows us to convert a 2 1/2" dead load with gated wye and hose pack for extended operations in apartment complex's and the like. This hybrid line handled very well and all of our personnel at training were pleased with its performance.

    Considering 5 years ago we were using 100 PSI auto's and significantly under pumping them creating a usable fire flow of about 90 GPM with 1 3/4" hose, I am happy with what we have achieved. One thing I have learned through this whole process is that many departments grossly over-estimate what they are flowing and few do the homework and test what they are using. We have only had the 2" hose for about three years and we have barely scratched the surface of what we can do with it. There is limited information available on this size hose and until a few months ago we used it very little outside of training. Our department is phasing out all 1 3/4" in favor of 2" except for trash lines.
    Last edited by 911WACKER; 09-25-2018, 11:45 AM.

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  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post

    I trust your experience has proven this works well. In our testing and experience we've found that underpumping smoothbore tipped lines (<50 psi) lead to much more kinking issues requiring more work for those behind the nozzle firefighter. Given the use of fog nozzle at 75 or 100 psi this would probably be a lesser issue, but alas, we start with smoothbores and Vindicators using the 50 psi nozzle pressure.

    I will half agree that the flow capability is similar to a 2 1/2" at normal handline flows. We all know a 2 1/2" is capable of greater flows, though it becomes less manageable by a hose team.

    In the end:
    If you increase the hose size, you increase flow capability but also increase the workload
    If you decrease the hose size, you lose flow and but reduce the workload
    What is acceptable depends on how you operate.
    We have not had a serious issue with kinking but we do make sure people know to watch for and kick kinks not just walk by them. We stress the last guy on the line's job is to make sure there are no kinks as they move forward.

    As we have been doing this for many years with no clamor to go back to 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 inch hose I would state that for us it works.

    Leave a comment:

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