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1 1/2 hose and flow question...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by MikeG344 View Post
    If they "Upgraded", why did they stay at such a low flow? If they were purchasing new nozzles why not go for the added saftey of 150 gpm at 75? We dumped 125 gpm nozzles at my volly FD almost 20 years ago for 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles. Strangely enough after having taken a nozzles class from Dave Fornell.

    I would hazard a guess that because of the size of the DFD the cost of replacing their current 1 1/2 inch hose with 1 3/4 in one fell swoop would have been a daunting sum. But then again to go to 150 GPM it was entirely unnecessary to switch.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

      If they "Upgraded", why did they stay at such a low flow? If they were purchasing new nozzles why not go for the added saftey of 150 gpm at 75? We dumped 125 gpm nozzles at my volly FD almost 20 years ago for 200 gpm at 75 psi nozzles. Strangely enough after having taken a nozzles class from Dave Fornell.

      I would hazard a guess that because of the size of the DFD the cost of replacing their current 1 1/2 inch hose with 1 3/4 in one fell swoop would have been a daunting sum. But then again to go to 150 GPM it was entirely unnecessary to switch.
      I linked the article to reference Capt. Fornell's thoughts on higher flows out of the inch and a half. Owning and reading a copy of his book, it's interesting to compare the info from 1992 to now WRT the usefulness of 1.5.

      As for the DFD, who knows. Maybe they did their due diligence and decided 125gpm was okay with the fires that they see the bulk of the time. Could be they have also tested flowing those nozzles at 100psi to see what they flow to have a reserve?
      Two departments, twice the fun...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

        It's funny how we acknowledged that fires burn faster, and sometimes even hotter, due to the make up of so many items inside of homes and the way homes are constructed. We even acknowledge the fact that the black smoke of today is unignited fire. So WHY do we keep sending firefighters into these fires like it is 1955 and everything in the house is real wood, linens, wool, and minimal synthetics? 100 GPM is the MINIMUM standard set by NFPA for interior fire ops and that number hasn't changed in decades. WHY? My firm belief is 150 GPM should be the minimum, and 180 or 200 would be better. The old adage that more water available at the nozzle means more water damage is an excuse for poorly trained nozzle firefighters. If you need 60 gallons to put the fire out you do it quicker at 150 to 200 GPM than at 100 gpm. All you have to do is remember to shut the nozzle off when the fire darkens, let it clear, and then finish off the remaining fire. Add to that the added safety of having more flow if you run into something unexpected, like a guy tearing his motorcycle apart in his living room with a full gas tank.
        Where I am, hearing "150gpm" might cause some concerns with visions of water damage while simultaneously running out of water(rural department).

        There is reams of data out there above the 'modern' fire environment, and 'we' do pay lip service to it, but I'm not sure how to approach flowing more water as a safety measure, let alone putting the fire out faster.
        Last edited by MikeG344; 02-19-2018, 02:02 PM.
        Two departments, twice the fun...

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MikeG344 View Post

          Where I am, hearing "150gpm" might scare the crap out of people with visions of water damage while simultaneously running out of water(rural department).

          There is reams of data out there above the 'modern' fire environment, and 'we' do pay lip service to it, but I'm not sure how to approach flowing more water as a safety measure, let alone putting the fire out faster.
          Water damage doesn't scare me half as much as uncontrolled fire.

          And Fyrd I'm guessing you actually had the motorcycle in the living room fire.

          Comment


          • #20
            I have seen dept's change from 1.5 to 1.75 and turn around and put the same 125 turbo jets on the new line.......
            Get the first line into operation.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by captnjak View Post

              Water damage doesn't scare me half as much as uncontrolled fire.
              No disagreement from me.

              Two departments, twice the fun...

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                Water damage doesn't scare me half as much as uncontrolled fire.

                And Fyrd I'm guessing you actually had the motorcycle in the living room fire.
                Worse. He originally had the bike in a basement storage locker. Inspection caught it and told him to remove it, he offered to remove the tank. The inspector agreed. Never bothering to ask where he was going to store a gas tank full of fuel. Later on we had a fire in this guys apartment. After the fire was out we were doing the check for extension thing and one of our guys opened the closet and on the top shelf is the gas tank...STILL FULL OF GAS! Fortunately the fire never got to it but can you image the schitt storm that would have been?
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
                  I have seen dept's change from 1.5 to 1.75 and turn around and put the same 125 turbo jets on the new line.......
                  Heck my volly FD did that for 2 years until someone asked why we were dragging bigger hose to flow the same water.
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MikeG344 View Post

                    Where I am, hearing "150gpm" might scare the crap out of people with visions of water damage while simultaneously running out of water(rural department).

                    There is reams of data out there above the 'modern' fire environment, and 'we' do pay lip service to it, but I'm not sure how to approach flowing more water as a safety measure, let alone putting the fire out faster.
                    using the excuse of running out of water to rationalize under flowing GPM has always ****ed me off to no end. And the water damage excuse is stupidity gone to seed.
                    ?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post

                      using the excuse of running out of water to rationalize under flowing GPM has always ****ed me off to no end. And the water damage excuse is stupidity gone to seed.
                      Same here. I tell them I'd rather knock the fire down a few notches then rest while waiting for water than to **** on it all night without a break and still get the same results.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post

                        using the excuse of running out of water to rationalize under flowing GPM has always ****ed me off to no end. And the water damage excuse is stupidity gone to seed.
                        BOOM! Mic drop and walk away.

                        Excellent post!
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tbzep View Post
                          FyredUp and I pm'd about this subject a while back. Both my depts are hell bent on 1.5" 100 gpm at 100 psi. I've tried unsuccessfully to move them toward the 21st century, and we even have a donated TFT set up for 75 psi 150 gpm. All I asked them for was one more 75 psi nozzle on one engine so that our two pre-connects could combine for 300 gpm, in order to show what a difference it can make. I don't dare discuss smooth bores.
                          Have them try to flow a combination nozzle into the wind on a windy day, and then let them try a straight tip...
                          I am in no way an all or nothing guy, but each type has it's advantages and deficits.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                            Have them try to flow a combination nozzle into the wind on a windy day, and then let them try a straight tip...
                            I am in no way an all or nothing guy, but each type has it's advantages and deficits.
                            When we first got our last new engine it had a 300 to 1250 automatic nozzle on the deck gun. We had an old co-op building that was being torn down and the contractors asked permission to burn small piles of debris and the fire department gave them permission as long as they stayed within established guidelines. Well apparently that wasn't fast enough for them so one night they set the remaining building on fire. I was driving the engine and I pulled up within about 75 feet of the main fire so that we could use the deck gun. I fired up the pump and swung the gun around and I couldn't hit the fire. The wind was so strong that about 30 feet away from the engine the stream was bending almost 90 degrees. I upped the pressure and it made no difference. We had no stacked tip on that engine so I went over to our other engine and swiped theirs. Went to the 1 3/4 inch tip and BOOM killed the fire pretty quick. The smooth bore stream held together and made it to the fire where the combo, on straight stream would not.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              1) deck guns, portable master streams, and elevated master streams should be stacked tip ONLY. There is rarely a need for a fog or automatic tip; what you typically want is penetration and large water droplets putting out the big fire. if you need that fog tip, leave it in the compartment.

                              2) as awesome as the GPM calculations are, all hose is not created equal. new technologies has reduced friction loss and increased the ability to flow GPMs. That being said, if your nozzle is maxed out at 125gpm, then that's all you will get. Increases in nozzle technology has made things more effective and easier to use.

                              3) since I am now on a rural fire department, running out of water is an actual risk, because we don't have hydrants everywhere, and tankers do take time to arrive. It's no fun being at a house fire with an engine that is all out of water. Been there, and done that. So being effective with the water you do have is important. That being said, I am more worried about the fire getting bigger than the water damage.
                              If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

                              FF/EMT/DBP

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I was only speaking of preconnect 1.5" handlines. We have smooth bores on our deck guns and master streams. If I can't get my people to consider lower PSI and higher volume combination nozzles, I sure can't get them to think about a smooth bore handline nozzle.

                                Comment

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