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Thoughts

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  • Thoughts

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot4Ces7n2aE

    Maybe taking on too much to fast with 1 line, Seems like they had fire in front, behind and to both sides. It's obvious the fire had vented it's self, given that and being right on top of it seems like a narrow fog might have been more effective at knocking it down some.
    Not knocking them at all just starting debate, I would have probably worked it from the stairs a good bit longer before piling 30 people in the hall.
    Get the first line into operation.

  • #2
    No doubt there was plenty of fire. But the fact that it was so well vented makes it easier to go in and hit it close up. Presence of (and knowledge of) lightweight roof support system would negate the interior attack, IMO. Too advanced of a fire.

    I would want a backup line ASAP.

    Charging the line after entering the structure gained them almost nothing. I would want it charged outside. Especially with that volume of fire.

    I disagree that operating from the base of the stairs any longer would have been any real advantage. Although it would have been helpful if they could hit more of the attic fire from there. I couldn't really tell from the video.

    There seemed to be periods of time when the nozzle was not open? That could just be my impression. That stream should have been operating basically non-stop.

    When giving the Mayday there must be full information. Who you are, where you are, what has happened and what is needed to address the situation. I did not hear any of this. Again I could simply have missed it.

    "No primary searches necessary, everyone is out of the house." This from the IC (presumably). I hate this. Primary searches are always necessary. The timing and level of aggressiveness can be flexible to a degree. Even in a PD there can be confusion as to who was or wasn't home at the time of the fire. It is a matter of professional discipline.

    We may be over managing these fires. Did this fire require an IC, an attack supervisor and a ventilation supervisor? (But don't bother searching?)

    All of these points are based only on my observations and impressions from the video. I could easily be be mistaken. This is not meant as a bashing session. Some of my actions over the years could be picked apart I'm sure.

    Comment


    • #3
      Seemed like the perfect opportunity to open the first line up from outside and hit the fire then move in with very little slowing of getting in. Similarly, closing the door while doing this would have slowed some of the oxygen, though it appeared to be venting from multiple places, so maybe less effective.

      It looks like a split level with an addition off the front? I suspect the type of roof was obvious through the flames? Maybe a primary search with that hoseline at the stairs while they checked below and then get out, little to be gained from fighting that fire on the upper level, but plenty to have lost. This is easily said seeing it here at my desk, where I can weigh everything I saw before typing away!

      No doubt seemed like a training fire with the IC giving instructions on what size line and where to deploy it in perfect monotone. And as Captnjak said: No Searches? No way, not here. Only we confirm the building is empty. A more cautious approach? A realistic view that anyone on the upper level was not viable, sure, but no search? Maybe the neighbors kid was sleeping in the basement and the parents didn't know? No shortage of guys available fairly early on...

      Comment


      • #4
        RFDACM02 I agree that, with fire venting from an alpha side window, they could have reset the fire from the exterior, then moved interior without losing too much time. However, with a tenable entryway and lower level, I personally would have still gone immediately to an interior attack. The faster you put a hoseline in the structure, the faster you can a) discover any victims and b) begin protecting means of egress like hallways and stairwells.

        captnjak I definitely agree about a backup line. They even call for it somewhere around 5:00 or 5:15 in the video. But with that much fire showing on arrival, I don't even think the interior crew should have had to call for it. I think the IC should have ordered a backup line immediately. With all those bodies piled in the stairwell, it's not like they didn't have the manpower.

        I know it's an old debate, but a smooth bore would have helped. With the constant flow, they're getting at most, 150 gpm, and probably pumping 160 or 170 psi to do it. Not to mention you run the risk that the nozzleman might adjust to a less effective, wider pattern, like happened here. With a smooth bore they would get 209 gpm off a 1inch tip and save 50 psi to pump the next line. With the body of fire they had, the extra gpms would have helped.

        Ultimately, I agree with captnjak. With fire through the roof like that, you gotta cool the attic space, and attacking from the upper level is probably the only way to do that (unless you pull out and go with masterstreams). Assuming no lightweight construction, I agree with the tactics they used in this video.
        Last edited by jes82; 12-15-2017, 08:30 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          How come those who pop up from time to time to complain about how far this forum has fallen never comment on posts like the one above?

          How come almost no one else has either?

          Comment


          • #6
            Two things bothered me from a generic firefighting point of view prior to the mayday. 1. There was no search of any kind, even with great visibility, interior lights, and extra FF's to do a quick sweep. 2. Their own hand line stayed shut down for a pretty long time before and after their call for a second line.

            Pertaining to point #1, I know command told them no search was needed. I don't know how strict the chain of command is within that dept concerning giving the line officer that went inside leeway to tell a couple of guys to do a quick check. Counting the FF with the camera and the white hat, there were 4 FF's inside about 2 minutes into the video and 6 FF's by 3 minutes, all of them dealing with one handline that had yet to advance beyond the right turn into the stairwell.

            As for #2, I've called for a second line more than a few times, especially on my volunteer dept. We keep working the nozzle during the process. Did the considerable down time make much difference? Probably not, but I just thought it was interesting.

            As others have mentioned in previous posts, we normally charge our handlines before entering single family dwellings and any other structures that don't dictate long complicated deployments. It would have been nice for more detail on the mayday considering all he seemed to need was manpower to lift and remove the FF. That would save the RIT team from hauling in all kinds of tools and air that might be needed for entrapment.

            I wasn't there, so my Monday morning QBing doesn't mean a hill of beans.



            Comment


            • #7
              That vibralert (pretty sure that's what that was towards the end of the video) was going off longer than I would be comfortable with. I'm an aggressive firefighter, but that's one thing I don't ignore.
              Member IACOJ

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                How come those who pop up from time to time to complain about how far this forum has fallen never comment on posts like the one above?

                How come almost no one else has either?
                It doesn't have the words "Trump" or "Clinton" in it?
                Member IACOJ

                Comment


                • #9
                  couple of things -looked to be plenty of manpower to have a backup line pulled pretty much simultaneously with the first -and should have been enough to start with a 2-1/2" exterior and holding the guys at the door (or maybe doing a quick primary downstairs) -it looked to be a split level and I feel the guy on the landing might have gotten a little more dark down if he had used the old attic fire trick of feeding the line up and whipping/rocking it with the combo on a fairly wide fog. (and yes I know it was vented, but still think it would have covered a little more area)that backup line should have started out in concert with opening up the lower ceiling(upper floor joist bays) making sure there wasn't fire there -especially in the area of the "header" holding up the stair opening. Floor opened up/safe -second line move up behind the first.
                  ?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To me this fire begged for a higher flowing line. I don't believe this handline was flowing much more than 125 gpm. This called for at least 180 to 250 gpm to kill that much fire. Second line immediately behind the first. They had plenty of staffing to make that happen. Absolutely no reason why 2 firefighters couldn't have done a rapid primary search of the first floor and perhaps basement. It was pretty clear in their with it having vented itself.

                    I agree on the MayDay call, Location, nature of the MayDay and what resources would be needed are imperative to an effective RIT op.
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment

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