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Transitional Attack and Flow Path Control

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  • trust --but verify -
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    • Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

      And if we have any reason to believe that the building still may be occupied .... Same plan. However, 95% of the time when we arrive all of the occupants are outside. The last fire we had in a vacant structure was easily 5 years ago. The last commercial fire was a restraint at 3AM (they closed at 9PM) and no reason at all to believe that anyone was inside.

      I had this discussion years ago ...I guess I'm not a believer in "the building ain't empty until the fire department says it's empty.". We know our district pretty well and have a pretty good idea when buildings are occupied and when they are not.
      "Pretty good idea" when they are occupied or not? So do you overhaul to verify final extinguishment or is a "pretty good idea" good enough? Do you check a patient's pulse/respiration or is a "pretty good idea" good enough?

      If it is not the job of the fire department to confirm who is or is not out, then whose job is it? And should that same entity decide when enough water has been used or when a building is safe to re-occupy?

      You are treating a major fire department function as an afterthought. With very little to no justification whatsoever.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by captnjak View Post

        "Pretty good idea" when they are occupied or not? So do you overhaul to verify final extinguishment or is a "pretty good idea" good enough? Do you check a patient's pulse/respiration or is a "pretty good idea" good enough?

        If it is not the job of the fire department to confirm who is or is not out, then whose job is it? And should that same entity decide when enough water has been used or when a building is safe to re-occupy?

        You are treating a major fire department function as an afterthought. With very little to no justification whatsoever.
        Agree to disagree.

        I don't feel that we treating it as an afterthought at all.

        I understand that we live in very different places.

        If the family tells us that they are all out of the building they are all out. They know who is at home and who is not.

        There are no businesses here that are occupied at 3AM except for the grocery store with 3 overnight stockers and the 24-hour convenience store. None of the other businesses have folks in them at 3AM and if they did, there would be cars outside and/or lights on. We are a small community and hard to believe perhaps, but things are generally pretty straightforward in this part of the world.

        Again, if we have any reason to believe that we have folks inside we'll commit a search team but in 99% of the responses that's not the case, and the hose team keeping their eyes out while advancing the line works pretty well.
        Train to fight the fires you fight.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

          Agree to disagree.

          I don't feel that we treating it as an afterthought at all.

          I understand that we live in very different places.

          If the family tells us that they are all out of the building they are all out. They know who is at home and who is not.

          There are no businesses here that are occupied at 3AM except for the grocery store with 3 overnight stockers and the 24-hour convenience store. None of the other businesses have folks in them at 3AM and if they did, there would be cars outside and/or lights on. We are a small community and hard to believe perhaps, but things are generally pretty straightforward in this part of the world.

          Again, if we have any reason to believe that we have folks inside we'll commit a search team but in 99% of the responses that's not the case, and the hose team keeping their eyes out while advancing the line works pretty well.
          You choose to work off assumptions because it has worked for you in the past. OK, I get it. Disagree but get it. Plus, you leave no room for growth or change. This is the part that I believe will bite you in the butt at some point.

          But please don't pretend that a "hose team keeping their eyes out while advancing the line" even approaches being a real search. You can't "hedge your bet: in this. Either you need it or you don't.

          Comment


          • I've probably beaten this topic to death by now. Appreciate the debate though.

            Stay safe everyone.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by captnjak View Post
              I've probably beaten this topic to death by now. Appreciate the debate though.

              Stay safe everyone.
              I enjoy your perspective and agree with a large % of them. On the search -it is like anything else in life -"I would rather do/have something and not need/do ----than find out the hard way that I needed to do or have. And , I am not saying you have to put suppression on the back burner to do a search -short handed , it is a juggling act -but it usually can be done. Note -agreeing -not disputing your stance -I sometimes am not too clear
              Last edited by slackjawedyokel; 02-14-2017, 04:48 PM.
              ?

              Comment


              • I just have to shake my head at all the macho chest pounding going on in opposition to the Transitional Attack and Flow Path Control. Especially when it is tied to SLICE-RS (a totally different topic in my opinion) and the idea that Rescue priority is being lowered.

                The blogs, facebook posts, articles in different fire magazines, and more railing on and on about yard breathers, defensive attacks, not going inside, and cowardice, just make me wonder if people have any idea what they are talking about or if they are more concerned with the macho melting of their Bourkes. The idea has been out there for a few years now, there has been plenty of time to actually read up on it, actually try it, and stop with the absolute BS excuses for not even considering it.

                Sorry but I am growing weary of dumb a z zes that just won't open their minds to the possibility that there might be a different way of doing things.
                Last edited by FyredUp; 03-16-2017, 07:27 PM.
                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                Millions of people living as foes
                Maybe it's not too late
                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                  I just have to shake my head at all the macho chest pounding going on in opposition to the Transitional Attack and Flow Path Control. Especially when it is tied to SLICE-RS (a totally different topic in my opinion) and the idea that Rescue priority is being lowered.

                  The blogs, facebook posts, articles in different fire magazines, and more railing on and on about yard breathers, defensive attacks, not going inside, and cowardice, just make me wonder if people have any idea what they are talking about or if they are more concerned with the macho melting of their Bourkes. The idea has been out there for a few years now, there has been plenty of time to actually read up on it, actually try it, and stop with the absolute BS excuses for not even considering it.

                  Sorry but I am growing weary of dumb a z zes that just won't open their minds to the possibility that there might be a different way of doing things.
                  The only problem I have with flow path control, specifically the door control, is that in real life there's often just not enough manpower to do this. It's one of those limited use tools in the back of the tool box that rarely gets used because of the setup time. And depending on the fire, it may not make any difference once the fire is venting in several places. I think as far as flow path is concerned, the most important thing is to be able to recognize the potential flow paths, and not to be in it.
                  And you'll never see me worrying about melting my Bourkes, they're the most useless piece of gear ever made.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by johnsb View Post

                    The only problem I have with flow path control, specifically the door control, is that in real life there's often just not enough manpower to do this. It's one of those limited use tools in the back of the tool box that rarely gets used because of the setup time. And depending on the fire, it may not make any difference once the fire is venting in several places. I think as far as flow path is concerned, the most important thing is to be able to recognize the potential flow paths, and not to be in it.
                    And you'll never see me worrying about melting my Bourkes, they're the most useless piece of gear ever made.
                    You can practice flow path control before entering by not opening the door and leaving it wide open before you are ready to enter.
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                      You can practice flow path control before entering by not opening the door and leaving it wide open before you are ready to enter.
                      I see this as one of the biggest lessons for some nationwide. How often did we see (and still do) FD's arriving and taking windows before the first line is even stretched? It was/is all too common for the assignment of the OV to just take every window they can reach. Even before flow path studies this was recognized as an issue by many, but by far not all FD's. Now if we can get the public to close the door behind them and keep the cops from letting in more air...

                      Comment


                      • There was a video on Statter recently where a front door was forced and left open while nozzle team awaited water and prepared for entry/advance. Before they were ready fire suddenly flashed out the door and basically in their faces. Specuation was that something may have "exploded" inside the house. My guess is a ventilation limited fire was supplied with fresh air and then did what fires do in that situation.
                        Leaving a door wide open is an example of uncontrolled ventilation. It's not guaranteeing a problem but let's call it what it is and accept that it MAY cause a problem.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post

                          I see this as one of the biggest lessons for some nationwide. How often did we see (and still do) FD's arriving and taking windows before the first line is even stretched? It was/is all too common for the assignment of the OV to just take every window they can reach. Even before flow path studies this was recognized as an issue by many, but by far not all FD's. Now if we can get the public to close the door behind them and keep the cops from letting in more air...
                          Police and civilians are certainly a wild card factor in all this.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            There was a video on Statter recently where a front door was forced and left open while nozzle team awaited water and prepared for entry/advance. Before they were ready fire suddenly flashed out the door and basically in their faces. Specuation was that something may have "exploded" inside the house. My guess is a ventilation limited fire was supplied with fresh air and then did what fires do in that situation.
                            Leaving a door wide open is an example of uncontrolled ventilation. It's not guaranteeing a problem but let's call it what it is and accept that it MAY cause a problem.
                            I saw that video and I agree that it fed the oxygen starved fire the air it needed and the fire took off. I have seen several videos of similar events with the same results. The problem is clear, with legacy interiors the fires were fuel limited so venting most often made interior conditions better, modern interior fires are most often oxygen limited with more than enough fuel so now venting often makes conditions worse as the fire seems to explode with rapid growth. Vent early, vent often, the mantra for generations may actually be creating rapid fire spread and endangering firefighters today. NO venting should be done today, with perhaps the exception of VES with controlling the hallway door, without charged hoselines and crews ready to go. One of the greatest issues here is getting crews to understand that opening a door is indeed ventilation.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                              Police and civilians are certainly a wild card factor in all this.
                              True enough. WE may be able to influence the local police, but if little Billy Joe, or Gramma is in there, we may not have much of a chance with civilians.
                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                                You can practice flow path control before entering by not opening the door and leaving it wide open before you are ready to enter.
                                That's kind of a given. I'm talking about after that.

                                Comment

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