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Transitional Attack and Flow Path Control

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  • #91
    I agree that rescue is an immediate action, but in departments responding with limited resources, the most effective form of rescue may be committing the initial members on-scene to knocking down the fire and stabilizing the situation, and then performing the actual rescue as additional members arrive.

    I have plenty of examples that may get 3-4 members for the first 15 minutes or more. Clearly in that case if they can control the flowpath and knock down the fire with those initial members, it will likely do more for victim rescue than not knocking down the fire. In many, many places, staffing only allows one action at a time until several minutes into the incident.

    Sometimes committing your resources to knock the fire down from the exterior or as staffing permits. make entry, solves many of your problems.

    I think you're situation in terms of rescue due to building construction, height, etc. is much different than mine.

    As far as search, if a family tells me that everybody is out of the house , especially if they are all gathered together, or a commercial building is locked tight at 3AM and we have no information that leads us to believe that it's occupied, there is no need for search, but hey, that might just be me
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 02-10-2017, 01:58 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    • #92
      But just because the "family" tells you everybody is out --- doesn't mean the Dad just found out how much child support he will have to pay if he gets a divorce -- and he gave mom an extra heavy dose of nyquill. And I am not saying kill your guys --just as Regan said --"TRUST BUT VERIFY"
      ?

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      • #93
        Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

        Cap, I just have to say you are being closed minded here. You interpretation of inserted anywhere means it can be neglected or delayed even if rescue need is obvious and that simply isn't true, nor the intent. If a rescue is obvious, person hanging out the window, mom screaming my baby is in there, then we make the rescue. If there is no obvious, immediate need for rescue what are we attempting to rescue by inserting rescue then? We would do a search, and as you clearly stated SEARCH IS NOT RESCUE. Search only becomes rescue IF a victim is found.

        Clearly it is semantics.
        When you say rescue can be inserted anywhere it makes it sound like making a rescue is a tactical decision we make. But it is not a decision at all. It must be done when and where the situation dictates. It is not inserted INTO the operation by us. It is forced upon us BY the operation. That is a real difference and not just semantics.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
          I agree that rescue is an immediate action, but in departments responding with limited resources, the most effective form of rescue may be committing the initial members on-scene to knocking down the fire and stabilizing the situation, and then performing the actual rescue as additional members arrive.

          I have plenty of examples that may get 3-4 members for the first 15 minutes or more. Clearly in that case if they can control the flowpath and knock down the fire with those initial members, it will likely do more for victim rescue than not knocking down the fire. In many, many places, staffing only allows one action at a time until several minutes into the incident.

          Sometimes committing your resources to knock the fire down from the exterior or as staffing permits. make entry, solves many of your problems.

          I think you're situation in terms of rescue due to building construction, height, etc. is much different than mine.

          As far as search, if a family tells me that everybody is out of the house , especially if they are all gathered together, or a commercial building is locked tight at 3AM and we have no information that leads us to believe that it's occupied, there is no need for search, but hey, that might just be me
          I acknowledge the differences in building and occupancy types.

          When I talk of rescue I am referring to a situation where there is an immediate hazard to an occupant and removal must be done immediately. If you can leave an occupant in place until after extinguishment it is more of a "shelter in place" scenario.

          Sheltering in place and removing later is not the same as immediate rescue. Anything that is not immediate is not really rescue.

          I could get on board with not doing a search (if I really had to) with the single family house fire and a responsible adult telling me everyone is out. Things like drug/alcohol abuse, mental illness, good old fashioned honest mistake, etc can still make that problematic. But that locked up commercial building not being searched is a disaster waiting to happen. Owners and employees could easily be locked inside.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
            I

            As far as search, if a family tells me that everybody is out of the house , especially if they are all gathered together, or a commercial building is locked tight at 3AM and we have no information that leads us to believe that it's occupied, there is no need for search, but hey, that might just be me
            Herein lies the difference from many of us, I say you still have to search at some point, and that point should be as early as feasible, but given limited resources, and the report of the family, committing to fire control may be the first order of business.

            How can you have a fire without search at all? For one, do you not look in every affected space to ensure there is no extension, trapped heat and smoke? Nevermind not search a commercial building, I cannot fathom not having searched an entire PD regardless of what anyone told me. Who knows maybe you come across a kidnap dungeon? Plenty of reasons family members won't tell the whole truth, or maybe not aware of who's in the house. When I was a teen we frequently crashed in a friends garage unbeknownst to his parents and sometime him. And where you got to be that you can't make a search at some point? Really no search at all? Delaying already endangers a potential victim, but leaving without looking at all? Not a chance.

            Maybe on the rescue part we're all closer to the same page. I think we all can agree a true rescue is an immediate priority whenever it occurs, upon arrival or 10 minutes in when a victim is found or worse if one of our own gets into trouble. Rescue should never be delayed unless to do so would endanger more lives. Yes, some people perceive their level of danger different than we might think, I'd hate to be wrong if I delayed to initiate a grab in favor of fire attack.
            Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-10-2017, 05:48 PM. Reason: keyboard caused misspelled words

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            • #96
              Originally posted by captnjak View Post

              When you say rescue can be inserted anywhere it makes it sound like making a rescue is a tactical decision we make. But it is not a decision at all. It must be done when and where the situation dictates. It is not inserted INTO the operation by us. It is forced upon us BY the operation. That is a real difference and not just semantics.
              We will never agree on this and that's fine. Stay safe!!
              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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              • #97
                Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                Herein lies the difference from many of us, I say you still have to search at some point, and that point should be as early as feasible, but given limited resources, and the report of the family, committing to fire control may be the first order of business.

                How can you have a fire without search at all? For one, do you not look in every affected space to ensure there is no extension, trapped heat and smoke? Nevermind not search a commercial building, I cannot fathom not having searched an entire PD regardless of what anyone told me. Who knows maybe you come across a kidnap dungeon? Plenty of reasons family members won't tell the whole truth, or maybe not aware of who's in the house. When I was a teen we frequently crashed in a friends garage unbeknownst to his parents and sometime him. And where you got to be that you can't make a search at some point? Really no search at all? Delaying already endangers a potential victim, but leaving without looking at all? Not a chance.

                Maybe on the rescue part we're all closer to the same page. I think we all can agree a true rescue is an immediate priority whenever it occurs, upon arrival or 10 minutes in when a victim is found or worse if one of our own gets into trouble. Rescue should never be delayed unless to do so would endanger more lives. Yes, some people perceive their level of danger different than we might think, I'd hate to be wrong if I delayed to initiate a grab in favor of fire attack.
                Are the guys on the line listening for shouts and looking around while moving the line inside? Sure, but the primary focus is fire attack. Do we generally go through the entire structure during overhaul? Yes, and obviously the members are looking for bodies while performing this task, but it is auxialry to overhaul. So maybe we search, but unless we have a reason to dedicate a crew, it's done secondary to other primary functions.

                As far are the circumstances you discussed, could they happen? Sure, anything is possible and should anything set off the bells in somebody's head, we'll search, but again, for our situation, in every situation where there has been a victim, we were told that there may be a victim.
                Train to fight the fires you fight.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

                  Are the guys on the line listening for shouts and looking around while moving the line inside? Sure, but the primary focus is fire attack. Do we generally go through the entire structure during overhaul? Yes, and obviously the members are looking for bodies while performing this task, but it is auxialry to overhaul. So maybe we search, but unless we have a reason to dedicate a crew, it's done secondary to other primary functions.

                  As far are the circumstances you discussed, could they happen? Sure, anything is possible and should anything set off the bells in somebody's head, we'll search, but again, for our situation, in every situation where there has been a victim, we were told that there may be a victim.
                  Sadly, not learning lessons from other places may result in a death before you have history enough to change your line of thinking, that would be tragic.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

                    Are the guys on the line listening for shouts and looking around while moving the line inside? Sure, but the primary focus is fire attack. Do we generally go through the entire structure during overhaul? Yes, and obviously the members are looking for bodies while performing this task, but it is auxialry to overhaul. So maybe we search, but unless we have a reason to dedicate a crew, it's done secondary to other primary functions.

                    As far are the circumstances you discussed, could they happen? Sure, anything is possible and should anything set off the bells in somebody's head, we'll search, but again, for our situation, in every situation where there has been a victim, we were told that there may be a victim.
                    I find it mind boggling that you can put search secondary to post control overhauling. There is just no valid way to support this stance. Any department that does so is not meeting the minimum requirements of structural firefighting, IMO.

                    I can accept a department that due to limited resources chooses extinguishment over search. But as soon as the fire is knocked down the effort should switch to primary search. Final extinguishment and overhaul can wait for a primary to be performed.

                    My position is based on a structure that is stable enough to safely enter and a fire condition that has been controlled or confined to a degree that allows entry.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                      Sadly, not learning lessons from other places may result in a death before you have history enough to change your line of thinking, that would be tragic.
                      It's just a matter of time.

                      Comment


                      • Happened yesterday in Nashville. Vacant home burned Friday evening. A salvage company found the body yesterday (Saturday) afternoon. News says a primary search was done and fire was under control in 15 minutes.

                        Comment


                        • Even out here in "Podunk land" -I usually tell the guys on the line to (for lack of a better word) "hold it in check" and have a couple of guys do a quick primary search , if negative , we try and kill it cold/ventilate and do a thorough secondary search.
                          ?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
                            Even out here in "Podunk land" -I usually tell the guys on the line to (for lack of a better word) "hold it in check" and have a couple of guys do a quick primary search , if negative , we try and kill it cold/ventilate and do a thorough secondary search.
                            This is how we teach initial line tactics with limited staffing. The first line in is assigned to control/confine the fire. Period. Not extinguish, control. This is due largely in part to not having a quick way (read: enough staff) to get a sustained water supply, while placing a hose in operation and and getting search underway. It is most important that we can protect and support the search while controlling the fire, without trying to complete extinguishment only to run out of water. This takes discipline on the part of the hose team, to ensure they use just enough water for control.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
                              Even out here in "Podunk land" -I usually tell the guys on the line to (for lack of a better word) "hold it in check" and have a couple of guys do a quick primary search , if negative , we try and kill it cold/ventilate and do a thorough secondary search.
                              And if we have any reason to believe that the building still may be occupied .... Same plan. However, 95% of the time when we arrive all of the occupants are outside. The last fire we had in a vacant structure was easily 5 years ago. The last commercial fire was a restraint at 3AM (they closed at 9PM) and no reason at all to believe that anyone was inside.

                              I had this discussion years ago ...I guess I'm not a believer in "the building ain't empty until the fire department says it's empty.". We know our district pretty well and have a pretty good idea when buildings are occupied and when they are not.
                              Train to fight the fires you fight.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
                                I had this discussion years ago ...I guess I'm not a believer in "the building ain't empty until the fire department says it's empty.". We know our district pretty well and have a pretty good idea when buildings are occupied and when they are not.
                                Very naive. Dangerously so in my book.

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