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Transitional Attack and Flow Path Control

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  • #76
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have no issues with the Acronym. I think it works well for most departments, especially smaller departments.

    For my department, it works, as Search is generally not a separate function but conducted by the hose teams during extinguishment operations..

    Why? because the majority of the time we have information that everybody has left the building, or the building is a commercial structure which is clearly secured with nobody inside. We have a couple of 24 hour businesses and 1 supermarket that has a small overnight stocking staff, but that's it for businesses with employees inside after 10PM. We know our district and have determined who and who not is a risk.

    So for us, Rescue, and for that matter, search are clearly Actions of Opportunities that often ..... or more accurately, the majority of the time,..... that do not have to be taken.

    That may be different with each department, but is certainly the case with us.
    I'm afraid it's just a matter of time before your attitudes toward search come back and bite you on the butt.

    I don't believe your department is as unique as you seem to think it is in it's ability to predict in advance what structures do or don't have occupants within them at any given time.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by captnjak View Post

      I'm afraid it's just a matter of time before your attitudes toward search come back and bite you on the butt.

      I don't believe your department is as unique as you seem to think it is in it's ability to predict in advance what structures do or don't have occupants within them at any given time.
      yep -mr murphy will bite you on the but some day -and for the record ,if an officer needs acronyms for bread and butter operations -he has problems.
      ?

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post

        yep -mr murphy will bite you on the but some day -and for the record ,if an officer needs acronyms for bread and butter operations -he has problems.
        I have seen the acronyms taped to the dash for then officer to use at a call. For a newbie perhaps, bot not an experienced officer. Size-up and an action plan come from practice and experience. My problem with acronyms is I can never remember them.

        I have my own size-up and it works for me. Who, where, what, what, who, what.

        Who: Engine 142

        Where: On location at 123 East Main Street

        What: 2 story wood frame dwelling with fire on Division 2 A/D corner.

        What: Out doing a 360 with the crew pulling an attack line.

        Who: Engine 142 is command

        What: Attacking the fire give me a MABAS Box Alarm.
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • #79
          Here we go with another cook adding their ingredient to the alphabet soup: SLAB SAVERS http://www.firehouse.com/news/123025...refighter-news

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
            Here we go with another cook adding their ingredient to the alphabet soup: SLAB SAVERS http://www.firehouse.com/news/123025...refighter-news
            SLICERS is all about fire attack.

            SLAB SAVERS appears to have to do with incident command.
            Train to fight the fires you fight.

            Comment


            • #81
              And no one remembers any of them in the heat of battle without a cheat sheet.
              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

                SLICERS is all about fire attack.

                SLAB SAVERS appears to have to do with incident command.
                Just debating the useful or uselessness of most acronyms. I say their only is for test-taking and very obscure evolutions. That said, I don't agree SLICERS is only about attack, it's just a new way to add to an algorithm a step to identify the flow path and tell people it's OK to hit the fire from outside the fire room. Here's an example of why this has little use on the fireground in my view:

                1. Size-up: You cannot help but do size-up. Anyone who has to be reminded to do a size-up should not be on any fireground, their a dangers to themselves and others. Some need another acronym to conduct size-up.
                2. Locate the fire: Anyone not doing this? It's kinda key to every fireground evolution, so are people forgetting?
                3. Identify the Flow Path: Here's the new, and in my mind valid step, though it's not really new is it? We're just applying our better understanding of how ventilation affects fire growth and movement. Again, once you've learned about flow paths, I can't see forgetting to identify and adjusting accordingly.
                4. Cool the space from a safe location: This was always an option, we're just now making it mainstream and again applying some of our "new found knowledge".
                5. Extinguish the fire: should need any explanation, but I find that it fails to note that you may need to control the fire first and not complete extinguishment until search is complete or others relying on the hose crew to protect their ingress/egress are out of harm way. Sometimes just keeping the fire in check is necessary before completing extinguishment, especially where initial resources are limited.
                6. Rescue: Everything else was in order of priority, but they couldn't get rescue/life/search or something close to fit the acronym well, so it's being called an action of opportunity. The only way I buy that is that it's an action that is done as soon as it's needed, which maybe after fire control when resources are scarce and fire control is necessary to ensure success.
                7. Salvage: Seems naked without overhaul. Again, I doubt any FD is forgetting this is the way to ensure a "happy customer" from someone who is having a the worst day of their life.

                Maybe the acronym was a good way to add the newest lessons on flowpath and hitting the fire from outside to rookie classes and test takers, but if the acronym is necessary for the IC to remember what needs to be done, you may want to consider a different model that puts competent people in the front yard.
                And maybe, sold as a strictly engine company functions list, SLICERS fits other than leaving out the part about securing a water supply? But if you don't have a dedicated truck company arriving fairly quickly, not mentioning search among numerous other tasks that are performed, makes this acronym inadequate.

                To me, SLAB SAVERS looks like a way to organize a tactical worksheet.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by FyredUp View Post
                  And no one remembers any of them in the heat of battle without a cheat sheet.
                  Most of us can't even recite them while sitting around a table, yet we are able to put it all in motion in the order dictated by the sizeup. Common sense, training, and experience go a long way.
                  Last edited by tbzep; 02-09-2017, 11:28 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post

                    Just debating the useful or uselessness of most acronyms. I say their only is for test-taking and very obscure evolutions. That said, I don't agree SLICERS is only about attack, it's just a new way to add to an algorithm a step to identify the flow path and tell people it's OK to hit the fire from outside the fire room. Here's an example of why this has little use on the fireground in my view:

                    1. Size-up: You cannot help but do size-up. Anyone who has to be reminded to do a size-up should not be on any fireground, their a dangers to themselves and others. Some need another acronym to conduct size-up.
                    2. Locate the fire: Anyone not doing this? It's kinda key to every fireground evolution, so are people forgetting?
                    3. Identify the Flow Path: Here's the new, and in my mind valid step, though it's not really new is it? We're just applying our better understanding of how ventilation affects fire growth and movement. Again, once you've learned about flow paths, I can't see forgetting to identify and adjusting accordingly.
                    4. Cool the space from a safe location: This was always an option, we're just now making it mainstream and again applying some of our "new found knowledge".
                    5. Extinguish the fire: should need any explanation, but I find that it fails to note that you may need to control the fire first and not complete extinguishment until search is complete or others relying on the hose crew to protect their ingress/egress are out of harm way. Sometimes just keeping the fire in check is necessary before completing extinguishment, especially where initial resources are limited.
                    6. Rescue: Everything else was in order of priority, but they couldn't get rescue/life/search or something close to fit the acronym well, so it's being called an action of opportunity. The only way I buy that is that it's an action that is done as soon as it's needed, which maybe after fire control when resources are scarce and fire control is necessary to ensure success.
                    7. Salvage: Seems naked without overhaul. Again, I doubt any FD is forgetting this is the way to ensure a "happy customer" from someone who is having a the worst day of their life.

                    Maybe the acronym was a good way to add the newest lessons on flowpath and hitting the fire from outside to rookie classes and test takers, but if the acronym is necessary for the IC to remember what needs to be done, you may want to consider a different model that puts competent people in the front yard.
                    And maybe, sold as a strictly engine company functions list, SLICERS fits other than leaving out the part about securing a water supply? But if you don't have a dedicated truck company arriving fairly quickly, not mentioning search among numerous other tasks that are performed, makes this acronym inadequate.

                    To me, SLAB SAVERS looks like a way to organize a tactical worksheet.
                    To me. it's a checklist for fire attack, and it particular, for the officer supervising the fire attack..

                    There is nothing in SLICERS regarding evaluating building construction, water supply, calling for additional resources, staging, etc. etc. etc., which are all are essential command functions

                    As far as rescue, there are situations where rescue is not required as there are no occupants, or the occupants are not in immediate danger and the best use of resources is to knockdown or extinguish the fire before performing rescue. I see Rescue, and even search, as something that can be inserted anyplace into the operation or in some cases, not required at all.

                    Train to fight the fires you fight.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      For most incidents -I don't see the need for a check list ---its pretty much --what needs done ? what needs done first ?
                      ?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post

                        To me. it's a checklist for fire attack, and it particular, for the officer supervising the fire attack..

                        There is nothing in SLICERS regarding evaluating building construction, water supply, calling for additional resources, staging, etc. etc. etc., which are all are essential command functions

                        As far as rescue, there are situations where rescue is not required as there are no occupants, or the occupants are not in immediate danger and the best use of resources is to knockdown or extinguish the fire before performing rescue. I see Rescue, and even search, as something that can be inserted anyplace into the operation or in some cases, not required at all.
                        For me, rescue is either needed or it is not. I define it as immediate action taken to address a known life hazard. Someone showing at a window and unable to extricate themself from their position would constitute a rescue. It cannot be inserted anywhere in the operation. It has to be done when it has to be done. Or we risk a jumper. Not a real big issue at a PD fire but some of us fight fires in MD's too. Or does that get a different acronym?

                        Soon we'll need an acronym to remember all the acronyms!

                        Note: PD refers to a private dwelling, not a police department that is on fire.
                        MD refers to a multiple dwelling.

                        And I'll never accept that search can ever be "not required at all".

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                          For me, rescue is either needed or it is not. I define it as immediate action taken to address a known life hazard. Someone showing at a window and unable to extricate themself from their position would constitute a rescue. It cannot be inserted anywhere in the operation. It has to be done when it has to be done. Or we risk a jumper. Not a real big issue at a PD fire but some of us fight fires in MD's too. Or does that get a different acronym?

                          Yes, it can be inserted anywhere in the operation. In your case rescue need is obvious and immediate due to the victim hanging out the window. If no one is hanging out the window and there are no other obvious victims there is no immediate need for rescue. There may be an immediate need for search to determine if there are any more victims, but no obvious victims means no immediate need for rescue.

                          Soon we'll need an acronym to remember all the acronyms!

                          True that!

                          Note: PD refers to a private dwelling, not a police department that is on fire.
                          MD refers to a multiple dwelling.

                          And I'll never accept that search can ever be "not required at all".

                          We may have to just agree to disagree on this one.
                          I think a big part of this debate is semantics and nothing more.
                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
                            For most incidents -I don't see the need for a check list ---its pretty much --what needs done ? what needs done first ?
                            I agree if you are an experienced, practiced, skilled officer. You may not use acronyms, but you have you built in method for covering all the bases.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by FyredUp View Post

                              I think a big part of this debate is semantics and nothing more.
                              Saying rescue can be inserted anywhere in the operation says to me that the person at the window threatening to jump can be addressed anytime we want to address it. Clearly not true. Search can be addressed when we want to. That is clearly not ideal. Those who say they search while advancing the line are kidding themselves. You are either doing one or you are doing the other. Or you are ding both poorly.
                              Rescue and search are not really the same thing. IMO, not semantics.
                              It is built into our culture and our SOP's that every fire building gets searched. Even if that means sifting through the rubble as the demo company takes down what is left of the building.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                                Saying rescue can be inserted anywhere in the operation says to me that the person at the window threatening to jump can be addressed anytime we want to address it. Clearly not true. Search can be addressed when we want to. That is clearly not ideal. Those who say they search while advancing the line are kidding themselves. You are either doing one or you are doing the other. Or you are ding both poorly.
                                Rescue and search are not really the same thing. IMO, not semantics.
                                It is built into our culture and our SOP's that every fire building gets searched. Even if that means sifting through the rubble as the demo company takes down what is left of the building.
                                Cap, I just have to say you are being closed minded here. You interpretation of inserted anywhere means it can be neglected or delayed even if rescue need is obvious and that simply isn't true, nor the intent. If a rescue is obvious, person hanging out the window, mom screaming my baby is in there, then we make the rescue. If there is no obvious, immediate need for rescue what are we attempting to rescue by inserting rescue then? We would do a search, and as you clearly stated SEARCH IS NOT RESCUE. Search only becomes rescue IF a victim is found.

                                Clearly it is semantics.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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