Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Transitional Attack and Flow Path Control

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by captnjak View Post
    Many people can't even be bothered to replace the batteries in their smoke detectors twice a year.
    This is why we need to mandate some safety requirements across numerous products and services. At some point, as we "allow" less safe construction materials and more for lack of more detailed description, more combustible furnishings, we need to require sprinklers to offset human nature to risk life when people have not personally been intimate with fire. We require seatbelts, motorcycle helmets, very detailed electrical code items, food safety regs, etc , etc. It's time to make new American homes safer for the occupants and our future firefighters.

    And in my experience in the residential construction field, the firefighting business and Life Safety Code enforcement, the average person who has a home built has very little concept of the cost breakdown until shown. They know what they want and the know what they can afford, as long as those two things come relatively close, they'll build. They don't ask about cutting corners on the electrical, they don't ask for under engineered trusses, they only work within those items that are "optional" or have multiple options. If sprinklers were part of the same requirements as electrical code compliance, structural engineering and proper plumbing, they'd just work with what was left in their budget for the options.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 09-11-2017, 11:32 AM.

    Comment


    • FEMA stats show civilian deaths have been up from all time lows every year since NIST allegedly revolutionized the fire service by flowing water into the window of a bedroom contents fire in a one story burn box. Keep cooling from the shrubbery, brothers. You're doing great!
      Last edited by FFsomeday; 03-30-2021, 08:56 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FFsomeday View Post
        FEMA stats show civilian deaths have been up from all time lows every year since NIST allegedly revolutionized the fire service by flowing water into the window of a bedroom contents fire in a one story burn box. Keep cooling from the shrubbery, brothers. You're doing great!
        That's the best you have to offer? "Keep cooling from the shrubbery?"
        Crazy, but that's how it goes
        Millions of people living as foes
        Maybe it's not too late
        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

        Comment


        • One statistic does not prove a cause.

          The use of petroleum/plastic based products in the homes are also at all time highs. This means faster fire build, more toxic smoke, and less time to warn and evacuate.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by HuntPA View Post
            One statistic does not prove a cause.

            The use of petroleum/plastic based products in the homes are also at all time highs. This means faster fire build, more toxic smoke, and less time to warn and evacuate.
            Thank you for a well thought out, fact filled post.

            Honestly I am sick to death of the macho kickback to this tactic.
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • It has been 5 1/2 years since I started this topic and the same crapola seems to be prevalent. The macho, stupid comments by a poster who apparently isn't even a firefighter yet.

              Let me spell it out for you one last time.

              1) No where does NIST or ISFSI say that the Transitional Attack, as defined by their studies, has to be used for every fire or even at all if you choose not to adopt it. It is for heavily involved fire areas to break the back of the fire to make fire conditions more survivable for victims and entering firefighters. Fires where you can still rapidly enter and extinguish the fire with no need for exterior water should be handled like they always have been.

              As an aside, no manner of fire attack will remove the toxic smoke and gasses from victims in close proximity to the fire area. Rapidly knocking the fire back and effecting extinguishment, followed by ventilating the area, removes toxic smoke and gasses. Being able to rapidly remove victims is their best chance for survival.

              2) Using the Transitional Attack does not mean you do not enter the building to complete extinguishment and complete a search. Transitional Attack is defined as that brief exterior hit followed by an aggressive interior fire attack and search. Sadly some misinformed officers and so called instructors were improperly teaching this, at least initially.

              3) Whether many firefighters wish to admit it or not a form of Transitional Attack has been in use since firefighting began. What do I mean? Quite simple an initial shot of water into the entry point to knock the fire back to allow entry was in its unscientific way a Transitional Attack.

              4) Again, use it if it fits into your operational plan and the situation calls for it. Don't use it if it doesn't fit your operational plan. Yes, it really is that simple.



              Crazy, but that's how it goes
              Millions of people living as foes
              Maybe it's not too late
              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

              Comment


              • I think we are seeing more fire departments being conscious of flow path control - based on watching videos that have been posted. In the past - based only on the sound - I could normally tell whether it was a east coast fire vs a west coast fire. If you heard lots of glass breaking because they were taking out every window in the house - east coast. If you heard 4 chain saws turning the roof into swiss cheese - west coast. I think flow control and better coordination between ventilation and fire attack is improving. Totally agree we have used the transitional attack for years based on limited initial manpower.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mitchkrat View Post
                  I think we are seeing more fire departments being conscious of flow path control - based on watching videos that have been posted. In the past - based only on the sound - I could normally tell whether it was a east coast fire vs a west coast fire. If you heard lots of glass breaking because they were taking out every window in the house - east coast. If you heard 4 chain saws turning the roof into swiss cheese - west coast. I think flow control and better coordination between ventilation and fire attack is improving. Totally agree we have used the transitional attack for years based on limited initial manpower.
                  With the change from oxygen controlled fires with legacy furnishings to fuel controlled fires with modern furnishings controlling ventilation openings is more important then ever. With the heavy fuel load off gassing extremely flammable hydrocarbon vapors venting wrong, whether too early or in the wrong spot can be disasterous. The old days of vent early and vent often simply do not apply in many situations today and venting before charged hose lines are in place can lead to a complete loss of the structure. Even something as simple as forcing the door but keeping it closed or mostly closed can slow fire growth.
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FFsomeday View Post
                    FEMA stats show civilian deaths have been up from all time lows every year since NIST allegedly revolutionized the fire service by flowing water into the window of a bedroom contents fire in a one story burn box. Keep cooling from the shrubbery, brothers. You're doing great!
                    My first reaction was to challenge you to show your source. But I did it for you. You are correct. The number of fire deaths has increased by about one person per million of population over the last ten years.

                    https://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/stati...ath_rates.html

                    Maybe my challenge should be that you demonstrate the direct connection between transitional attack and fire deaths. Surely there are studies that back you up. Or maybe you could just tell us based on your own training, experience and expertise.

                    Comment


                    • Hoarding seems to be getting worse and worse every year. Recently we have encountered fires we could not get to in any reasonable time frame. IC's ordered handlines to be operated from the exterior through windows. Fires darkened down and extinguishment was completed from the interior. All involved had to admit it was a good tactic, an appropriate tactic. This was at both private dwellings and multiple dwellings.That is a huge leap for this department. You can teach and train all you want on something but it's not really a thing until buy-in is accomplished.

                      Comment


                      • Another statistic to look at:
                        What is the average time from 911 call to water flow? It will be hard to find, but even call to first apparatus would be interesting to see. I know out here in rural lands, volunteers are hard to come by and it is having affects on response times all over. It used to be that a single department with help from maybe one other could handle a standard fire. 4-6 is the average now.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by HuntPA View Post
                          Another statistic to look at:
                          What is the average time from 911 call to water flow? It will be hard to find, but even call to first apparatus would be interesting to see. I know out here in rural lands, volunteers are hard to come by and it is having affects on response times all over. It used to be that a single department with help from maybe one other could handle a standard fire. 4-6 is the average now.
                          There are plenty of factors that would have to be considered, with yours being very valid. I think they're calling what you refer to as "flex time" these days. I'm sure someone can confirm that or correct it.
                          A very simple and direct correlation between transitional attack and increased fire deaths is not valid at all. Wouldn't we have to know that there has actually been an increase in using the tactic? It's not like it's a new one.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by HuntPA View Post
                            Another statistic to look at:
                            What is the average time from 911 call to water flow? It will be hard to find, but even call to first apparatus would be interesting to see. I know out here in rural lands, volunteers are hard to come by and it is having affects on response times all over. It used to be that a single department with help from maybe one other could handle a standard fire. 4-6 is the average now.
                            Speaking of time of call to water flow, we have a huge gap between the 911 call and being paged. Some of us with scanners often hear them tell the LEO's that there is a fire call, and it is often 5-7 minutes later that we are paged. Add that to the actual response time and we end up with a terrible 911 call to water flow elapsed time.

                            MVA's are worse. They page EMS (still separate from FD's here), then tell LEO's, then call the state troopers,and finally they page us. I've documented nearly 15 minute elapsed times between paging EMS and us, not counting the time from the 911 call to EMS page. 1/4 of our golden hour is squandered before we are even notified.

                            This happens both with our rural volunteer FD and Rescue Squads and our paid city depts (same 911 dispatch center). Their excuse is that they have to put it in the CAD first. I've seen the CAD and there's not 5 minutes worth of data to enter, much less 15 minutes worth.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tbzep View Post

                              Speaking of time of call to water flow, we have a huge gap between the 911 call and being paged. Some of us with scanners often hear them tell the LEO's that there is a fire call, and it is often 5-7 minutes later that we are paged. Add that to the actual response time and we end up with a terrible 911 call to water flow elapsed time.

                              MVA's are worse. They page EMS (still separate from FD's here), then tell LEO's, then call the state troopers,and finally they page us. I've documented nearly 15 minute elapsed times between paging EMS and us, not counting the time from the 911 call to EMS page. 1/4 of our golden hour is squandered before we are even notified.

                              This happens both with our rural volunteer FD and Rescue Squads and our paid city depts (same 911 dispatch center). Their excuse is that they have to put it in the CAD first. I've seen the CAD and there's not 5 minutes worth of data to enter, much less 15 minutes worth.
                              15 minute delays sound almost unbelievable to me. If true, it borders on criminal IMO. There HAS to be a better way!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                                15 minute delays sound almost unbelievable to me. If true, it borders on criminal IMO. There HAS to be a better way!
                                They blame it on the CAD, but in reality, they wait until LEO get on scene and let them decide whether or not they need us. I don't know who is calling the shots on that unwritten policy, but it will definitely end badly for someone one of these days. I'm of the opinion that it's better to have us and not need us than it is to need us and not have us. They can always cancel, but they can't magically recover the time wasted if they wait to call us.

                                Comment

                                300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                                Collapse

                                Upper 300x250

                                Collapse

                                Taboola

                                Collapse

                                Leader

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X