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Vertical ventilation and ul studies, change in priorities?

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  • #16
    I'm about as "urban" as it gets, but thanks.....
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
      I'm about as "urban" as it gets, but thanks.....
      Not getting the point of your post.

      Are you disagreeing with me over the type of sheathing that I feel is prevalent in urban areas? I admit to an eastern bias as far as the ages of buildings found in American cities. I'm sure Phoenix and LA and Houston have more plywood sheathing than NY and Chicago and Boston for example.

      Are you trying to smack me down because you think I questioned your urban credibility? That was not my intent.

      You had given a somewhat flippant answer to another member's question. I tried to answer his question a little more thoroughly. That is all.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by captnjak View Post
        Not getting the point of your post.

        Are you disagreeing with me over the type of sheathing that I feel is prevalent in urban areas? I admit to an eastern bias as far as the ages of buildings found in American cities. I'm sure Phoenix and LA and Houston have more plywood sheathing than NY and Chicago and Boston for example.

        Are you trying to smack me down because you think I questioned your urban credibility? That was not my intent.

        You had given a somewhat flippant answer to another member's question. I tried to answer his question a little more thoroughly. That is all.
        No worries. Granted I answered based on the building construction most prevalent in my area. We also have areas with roofs built 2x6's or other individual boards.

        My point to the entire thread is that we don't need to make things overly difficult. Get up there and try and use whatever method you find works best for you.

        As to the original topic, I don't think that it was ever the intent of NIST or anyone else to say that vertical ventilation could or should be eliminated. Again, prioritize it in your department as you see fit.

        As far as trying to "smack you down", that was not my intent and if you took it that way I apologize.
        RK
        cell #901-494-9437

        Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

        "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


        Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

        Comment


        • #19
          In response to the initial question the UL studies have not altered our operations with regard to vertical ventilation. We have incorporated greater understanding of flow patch impacts, but with regard to vent limited fires or not venting until you have water on the fire or whatever else is in vogue the age old concept of releasing heating gases and smoke (fuel) out of the space is a good thing because if you release it then you control it. If you don't release it you can't always control when it will light off. As for the comment about sky lights, etc being taken first I agree but that is only for spaces those skylights have access to like a den or living room or bed room. A hole is still needed for attic spaces. Just my .02 cents.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 68truck View Post
            In response to the initial question the UL studies have not altered our operations with regard to vertical ventilation. We have incorporated greater understanding of flow patch impacts, but with regard to vent limited fires or not venting until you have water on the fire or whatever else is in vogue the age old concept of releasing heating gases and smoke (fuel) out of the space is a good thing because if you release it then you control it. If you don't release it you can't always control when it will light off. As for the comment about sky lights, etc being taken first I agree but that is only for spaces those skylights have access to like a den or living room or bed room. A hole is still needed for attic spaces. Just my .02 cents.
            "releasing heating gases and smoke (fuel) out of the space is a good thing because if you release it then you control it."

            But this isn't necessarily true. If you open up vertically at the roof level and horizontally at a lower level a flow path will be created (assuming ceiling has been pushed down). Fresh air will enter and may allow a vent-limited fire to ignite and flash. Once this happens heat will increase and production of fire gases will increase. If that all rises up and out through the roof then we are golden. But that doesn't always happen. Water is not always immediately applied where it needs to be applied. The amount of heat can "overcome" the vent hole, which will cause the fire to flash in other areas.

            You are correct about skylights. They affect relief for the areas that are actually occupied (by civilians and firefighters) versus the attic. Doesn't mean the attic won't need venting but certainly not the top priority.

            How often do we see videos in which a department sends more guys to the roof than they commit to advancing the hand line? It's backwards.

            Comment


            • #21
              I understand your point but respectfully disagree. As mentioned a vent limited fire could flash anywhere, however if it is vent limited then the atmospheric pressure inside is higher than normal. Open the roof, push the ceiling and these gases and heat will exit the structure. Given the increased atmospheric pressure inside, the ability of fuel/oxygen to combine in the right percentages to light off will be close to the exit point on the roof. Now a qualifier, I agree with flow path and the introduction of oxygen at the low point (entry point of personnel). However if you control your entry point with effective door control this greatly reduces the chance of an occupied area to flash because of ventilation efforts.

              As for personnel numbers on the roof versus inside, the department I come from doesn't have this problem. If there is a crew on the roof there is at least 1-crew inside pushing the line.

              Comment


              • #22
                Door control is important as is control of window venting. Your point is correct unless the roof vent opening is not large enough. Then you could have a flash to other areas besides right at the roof level. Probably takes a perfect storm set of conditions.

                Comment

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