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  • Vertical ventilation and ul studies, change in priorities?

    As a truck company...

    With the recent ul/ nist studies recommending limiting flow paths to a ventilation limited fire have you minimized the amount of vertical ventilation that was commonly performed in the past?

    If so, what other priorities have replaced that practice?

    I say recon or 360, forcible entry, known rescue, 1 all clear, would be priorities over vertical ventilation.

    I'd like to hear how these studies have influenced your operations?

    Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions.

  • #2
    The reason for vertical ventilation is creating a flowpath where fire vents out the roof while fresh air is drawn in via horizontal openings at a lower level. This is still sound firefighting as long as firefighters are not actually in the flowpath. The problem that can arise is a situation where the roof is vented and fire is blowing out the roof, but is also blowing out one or more windows. This is because the roof opening is not big enough to relieve the heat energy of the fire. It should be pointed out that ventilation usually leads to an increase in burn rate and heat release. I believe there will be further tests aimed at vertical ventilation practices with a concentration on size of openings. We may not be making them big enough and at what size point does it become unproductive?

    For peaked roof private dwelling fires my department is one that does not normally make roof ventilation a high priority. We have good staffing and response times, along with a great water supply system, which allows us to successfully concentate on horizontal ventilation, extinguishment and aggressive search. We believe that at most fires we can accomplish these things before a sufficient vent hole on the roof could be cut, pulled, ceiling pushed down, etc.
    Last edited by captnjak; 10-15-2014, 10:07 AM.

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    • #3
      Thank you Captnjak, I value your input. Those factors you mentioned are also factors that we typically find here in Southern California, and I understand that all tactics and strategy are situation dependent. Thanks again.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by EastKyFF
        Here's a great video from Virginia Beach FD regarding a close call they had when an apparent flow path issue created a flashover.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA5pU8Ceuuc
        Great video and well worth the 22 minutes.

        Major point of emphasis is that they felt there was a known life hazard and this justified an agressive search in that portion of the house even though most of house was involved in fire. They stated that area was tenable at the time of entry so this was not a case of hurling themselves into a severe fire condition. Conditions deteriorated after entry and they made the right call to get out.

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        • #5
          We're currently getting away from the 4' X 4' (residential) and 8' X 8' (commercial) and saying "bigger is better". I'm currently teaching that if a FD uses the previously stated sizes, these should be the minimum sized heat holes cut. I know some FDs (Anaheim FD) has had some great success with 10' X 10' holes on residential roofs and large holes on their commercials.
          "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

          Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

          Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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          • #6
            Hi mikeyboy411, thanks for your post. May I ask you, who do you teach for or with. And can you direct me on the 10x10 technique literature. I'd like to see how that is being implemented.

            I have a few friend that's work for Anaheim and I know that the also use ppa in some applications.

            Thank you again for sharing your insight.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Biggie55 View Post
              Hi mikeyboy411, thanks for your post. May I ask you, who do you teach for or with. And can you direct me on the 10x10 technique literature. I'd like to see how that is being implemented.

              I have a few friend that's work for Anaheim and I know that the also use ppa in some applications.

              Thank you again for sharing your insight.
              I'm a C.O. so I train my crew as well as those that work with me (even occasionally). Check with the guys from AFD, they should be able to direct you and get the information for you. I'd post exactly where but that would be advertising a product in the forums. LOL.

              If you send an email I can send you what I've got.
              "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

              Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

              Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

              Comment


              • #8
                Hard to believe that those guys were not more seriously hurt in California today after going through a roof.

                Lucky I guess.
                The fire service is about service to our fellow man.
                There is a trust that must not be broken and we are the keepers of that trust.
                Captain Dave LeBlanc

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by conrad427 View Post
                  Hard to believe that those guys were not more seriously hurt in California today after going through a roof.

                  Lucky I guess.
                  I agree... Although not lucky, I don't believe in luck.
                  "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

                  Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

                  Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I read that the roof section "hinged" down to a degree, allowing them to slide to the floor. If that's not luck I don't know what is.

                    Glad to hear that their injuries are mostly minor (three treated and released and one in burn center?)

                    Going purely by the one video I've seen, they did not belong on that roof and I don't see a big upside to operating there.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Biggie55 View Post
                      Hi mikeyboy411, thanks for your post. May I ask you, who do you teach for or with. And can you direct me on the 10x10 technique literature.
                      It's the same as 4x4, but cut 6 more feet in both directions.....

                      No charge.
                      RK
                      cell #901-494-9437

                      Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                      "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                      Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
                        It's the same as 4x4, but cut 6 more feet in both directions.....

                        No charge.
                        BOOM! And folks, sometimes it is just that simple!!
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
                          It's the same as 4x4, but cut 6 more feet in both directions.....

                          No charge.
                          But do you pull the entire 10x10 all at once?

                          I assume that's where the question was heading. Additional cuts are made in order to get more easily pulled sections.

                          I would assume an additional vertical cut or 2 to allow for louvering or easier removal.
                          Last edited by FyredUp; 05-24-2015, 06:12 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                            But do you pull the entire 10x10 all at once?

                            I assume that's where the question was heading. Additional cuts are made in order to get more easily pulled sections.

                            I would assume an additional vertical cut or 2 to allow for louvering or easier removal.
                            With plywood sheathing being 4 x 8, if you cut a straight 10 x 10 it will come off in pieces.
                            RK
                            cell #901-494-9437

                            Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                            "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                            Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MemphisE34a View Post
                              With plywood sheathing being 4 x 8, if you cut a straight 10 x 10 it will come off in pieces.
                              4x8 could get real heavy depending on type and amount (layers) of roofing material. The vast majority of our NFP MD's have wooden boards as opposed to plywood as they are older. Many of the urban brothers/sisters can relate.

                              I'm not sure what kind of guidance the brother was looking for but I'll throw some things out there for him. With any luck we can get a nice discussion going. I'll preface this by saying it all concerns ventilation of flat roofs supported by wood joists. Lightweight construction is a whole other discussion IMO. We don't prioritize peak roof ventilation here but many of the points would apply anyway.

                              Take skylights, scuttles and bulkhead doors prior to cutting roof. (quicker and easier)

                              Look for "hot spots" on the roof to determine location of fire if possible. Look for melted snow or ice, steam or dry spot, cast iron vent pipes that are hot or plastic pipe that is hot, soft, melted etc. Location of fire may also be known from personal observation or radio contact with inside team.

                              Keep size of cuts to a manageable size. Multiple small cuts are easier to pull than fewer large cuts. Keeping the cuts small may allow pieces to be pulled intact (plywood or roof boards and all roofing material together). If not, the roofing material and plywood/roof boards will have to be pulled separately. A large hole can be made from many smaller sections of roofing.

                              All sections should be cut before any are pulled.

                              Don't try to go too big or you'll never finish in time to actually make a difference.

                              Keep the wind at your back and work toward it. If cut needs to be expanded you'll have a shot without smoke and flame in your face.

                              No one should work alone on a roof.

                              It's best to have two escape routes from roof in case things go bad.

                              Whatever you do, don't forget to push down the ceiling below (assuming you are trying to relieve the top floor of heat, smoke and fire gases). I've seen way too many videos of both flat and peak roof ops where the hole is cut and pulled, and then the roof team scrambles off the roof. Often there is no hook as part of the tool complement. Then they'll say they cut the roof to make things easier for the nozzle team or victims. How? By venting the attic or cockloft while firefighters and victims would be in the occupied areas of the house below?

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