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Culture of extinguishment not safety?

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  • #61
    Why not sacrifice some of that training? After all the statistics show they are more likely to die from a cardiac event.

    Interesting perspective. Can't say I agree, but I also can't say I disagree. I guess that is something that I would have to think about before commenting any further.

    Yes, an impact on their members living a longer life and not subjecting people who are not fit to strenous work.


    I might say that it an personal choice to some extent. Take my case, as I have had a previous MI and recently had another blockage with a stint put in place. My cardiologist has cleared me back to full duty, including firefighting, but I have chosen to limt my activities to pump operations, exterior support functions and command functions, except in the most dire manpower situations.

    Most members know when they are too old to function. Some don't. And there are those who sit in the middle who can function but may be out of shape which causes issues.

    I agree, no more mandates. No more mandates for ppe, training, etc, because they can't afford it.


    Not sure if this is a serious comment, or a cynical comment.

    However, I will say that mandates are becoming almost impossible for small VFDs to follow. It wouldn't take many more to put a lot of VFDs out of business.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
      I might say that it an personal choice to some extent. Take my case, as I have had a previous MI and recently had another blockage with a stint put in place. My cardiologist has cleared me back to full duty, including firefighting, but I have chosen to limt my activities to pump operations, exterior support functions and command functions, except in the most dire manpower situations.
      While it may be allowed to be a personal choice, the fact is that public money is supporting the bad outcomes from this choice. This choice could also affect the outcomes of the incident in a bad way.

      Not sure if this is a serious comment, or a cynical comment.

      However, I will say that mandates are becoming almost impossible for small VFDs to follow. It wouldn't take many more to put a lot of VFDs out of business.
      Nothing gets by you... yes, it was most certainly cynical. You can't on one hand demand mandates for training and PPE by claiming to prevent firefighter deaths over something as simple as a physical exam when the statistics show that cardiac health is more significant in regards to firefighter mortality.

      It doesn't pass the smell test.
      Last edited by ChiefKN; 01-06-2011, 10:44 PM.
      I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

      "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

      "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by len1582 View Post
        ...
        How does the manpower issue work out during the week day when many are at work by you?
        Manpower issue is why FAST is most always a mutual aid department. Not many around here have the manpower during the day to staff normal attack and still have enough for dedicated FAST. Many departments setup agreements with their mutual aid towns to be dispatched on reported fires, not wait until someone gets on scene and then decides FAST is needed/wanted. And there are some departments who have simply said "don't call us" for FAST as they can't/won't do the training on it they should. I respond through 6 towns to get to 1 of the departments we respond to for some FAST calls as the departments in between don't offer it. Yes, more of a delay than there should be...but better than no response at all.
        "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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        • #64
          Ok....thanks

          Comment


          • #65
            Do your members a favor and direct traffic

            Originally Posted by LaFireEducator
            I might say that it an personal choice to some extent. Take my case, as I have had a previous MI and recently had another blockage with a stint put in place. My cardiologist has cleared me back to full duty, including firefighting, but I have chosen to limt my activities to pump operations, exterior support functions and command functions, except in the most dire manpower situations.


            That's great, when the shiite hits the fan and people are in real need, then the guy with the cardiac issue will jump in to add to the problem, ahem, I mean help! You continually contradict yourself. You spew your version of safety, yet continue to operate in a position of need while being a diagnosed front runner in the line of duty death preventable cause category. Your cardiologist sounds like a quack! Clearly you've had cardiac issues before, yet you're cleared for full duty? I guess maybe he knows you can't get into any trouble standing out front. Sadly, if anything you write is true, someone might mistake you for a firefighter and be at the minimum disappointed, worse if they count on you for anything.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
              [B]I might say that it an personal choice to some extent. Take my case, as I have had a previous MI and recently had another blockage with a stint put in place. My cardiologist has cleared me back to full duty, including firefighting, but I have chosen to limt my activities to pump operations, exterior support functions and command functions, except in the most dire manpower situations.
              First off i am glad to hear that you have recovered from you MI and other heart problems.

              So with your heart history how does this impact your views on fitness in the fire service. Would you dislike for pyshicals and health requirments be skewed by you personally having heart problems? Or do you feel that it has "encouraged you" to lead a more health lifestyle? Do you think that if you had yearly pyshicals or if you did a more intense pyshical you might have been able to catch some of the early warning signs before your MI?

              Do you ever use yourself as an case study or example for heath and fitness in the fire service to other firefighters? Just like you do for "your i use to be but now i saw the light" storys.

              Obviously some heart problems are due to genes and family history. However culturaly we in the fire service have not been the best in regards to heart health. I firmly believe this is the true culture that we must change.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by RFD21C View Post
                First off i am glad to hear that you have recovered from you MI and other heart problems.

                So with your heart history how does this impact your views on fitness in the fire service. Would you dislike for pyshicals and health requirments be skewed by you personally having heart problems? Or do you feel that it has "encouraged you" to lead a more health lifestyle? Do you think that if you had yearly pyshicals or if you did a more intense pyshical you might have been able to catch some of the early warning signs before your MI?

                Do you ever use yourself as an case study or example for heath and fitness in the fire service to other firefighters? Just like you do for "your i use to be but now I saw the light" storys.

                Obviously some heart problems are due to genes and family history. However culturaly we in the fire service have not been the best in regards to heart health. I firmly believe this is the true culture that we must change.
                Thanks.

                I have no dislike for physicals. if ma department chooses to require physicals and feels they have the funding for them, I support them 100%. The problem I have is the discussion about mandatory physicals, which will have a significant impact on the operations of a small department running on 80, 60 and 40K. Like it or not, the physicals will cause deep cuts in other areas and will have MAJOR impacts on safety in other areas.

                I do use myself as an example. While I have always been in descent shape, I could have been better and i could have eaten better. While I have been returned to full duty by my doctor, I have , after conversations with my wife have decided to work non-interior tasks in most situations. It's also called accepting that you are getting older and it's time to let the kids take the reins.

                I had been getting physicals, and while a slighly elevated chlosetrol was noticed, it was nothing that my doctor say as critical.
                Train to fight the fires you fight.

                Comment


                • #68
                  And another thread become an "attack LA" thread....

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                    And another thread become an "attack LA" thread....
                    Seems like a common occurrence, eh?
                    Thinking they should change the name of this place to FirehouseLaEducator.com.
                    Train to fight the fires you fight.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by RFD21C View Post
                      First off i am glad to hear that you have recovered from you MI and other heart problems.
                      Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                      And another thread become an "attack LA" thread....
                      Yes, we are so mean.
                      I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

                      "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

                      "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Catch22 View Post
                        And another thread become an "attack LA" thread....
                        It just makes one wonder WHY?
                        Stay Safe
                        Bull


                        “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
                        - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

                        Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
                        -WINSTON CHURCHILL

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by J.Beck View Post
                          Too much safety? Or too much focus on exinguishment?

                          Your thoughts?
                          Since your question is based directly upon a "known" speech, I will answer it this way... my thoughts:

                          I believe the man who spoke this very argument in the name of "extinguishment", to be one of the finest gentlemen that the fire service has had. whether it be as a Loo on the engine today, or on the truck in HK almost 20 yrs ago pulling off his first roof rope rsq... 28+ and counting, each additional year he decides to stay and not retire is one that I cherish, because when these brothers leave, it leaves a hole that is arguably impossible to fill. Each year, fewer and fewer remain and that hole grows larger. It's wise to listen to them.

                          Those are my thoughts, I think you'll be able to interpret where my "focus" is.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Sort of what I was thinking. Did he not think we could spot the blatant plagiarism of McCormack?
                            ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by tajm611 View Post
                              Sort of what I was thinking. Did he not think we could spot the blatant plagiarism of McCormack?
                              Blatant plagiarism?

                              What specifically was plagerized?

                              http://thekitchentable.firerescue1.c...certainly.html
                              Last edited by J.Beck; 01-07-2011, 02:40 AM.
                              Cognition before Ignition

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Oh idk. The whole thing.


                                Taken from an article on it

                                "...LT McCormack states “We do not need a culture of safety; we need a culture of extinguishment… If we put out the fire, safety is accomplished for everyone on the fireground”.

                                That would be your title and his key points match your #5 post in the thread.

                                Effective risk management results in saving savable lives while not compromising the safety of firefighters.
                                Search supported by effective fire control and tactical ventilation is more likely to succeed than search that is not.
                                In some cases firefighters should take the fire first, rather than focusing on primary search (as controlling the fire will eliminate the threat to both firefighters and occupants)..."
                                Last edited by tajm611; 01-07-2011, 02:43 AM.
                                ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

                                Comment

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