Culture of extinguishment not safety?

[LaFireEducator]

Disorientation
Entrapment/Entanglement
Lack of overall fire experience
Lack of commercial "big box" experience
Lack of "big box" training
Lack of self-rescue/survival training
Exceeding air supply
Lack of air management/discipline
Over-aggressiveness in commercial structures

These are some of the things I see as factors for the increased number of firefighters seemingly getting into trouble more often.

Any comments?

I am impressed how well this thread has progressed. When I say the title i was expected quite a slug fest.

[nyckftbl]

Disorientation
Entrapment/Entanglement
Lack of overall fire experience
Lack of commercial "big box" experience
Lack of "big box" training
Lack of self-rescue/survival training
Exceeding air supply
Lack of air management/discipline
Over-aggressiveness in commercial structures

These are some of the things I see as factors for the increased number of firefighters seemingly getting into trouble more often.

Any comments?

I am impressed how well this thread has progressed. When I say the title i was expected quite a slug fest.

Link? .

[JohnVBFD]

From 2001 to 2009

Disorientation

Answer= 9 for a yearly average of 0.9

Entrapment/Entanglement

Answer= 105 for a yearly average of 10

Lack of overall fire experience
Lack of commercial "big box" experience
Lack of "big box" training
Lack of self-rescue/survival training
Over-aggressiveness in commercial structures

As stated competely unanswerable. Common denominator, ALL were trained by someone.

Exceeding air supply
Lack of air management/discipline

Answer 1 for a yearly average of 0.1

Total= 115 with a yearly average of 11.5 for your factors that somoene can equate. But then again, we won't go with the training issue because we all know how little you care about that.

These are some of the things I see as factors for the increased number of firefighters seemingly getting into trouble more often.

Any comments?

Yea you left one out.

Heart Attack= 443 deaths for a yearly average of 44.3

I agree. Your stated factors are area's we should be focusing on.

[Bones42]

.....I agree. Your stated factors are area's we should be focusing on.

Did you miss this part

"However, it does not address the root causes of firefighters becoming lost or trapped inside burning buildings.

Your thoughts? "

of the opening post? or are you just another LaFire attacker?

[Bones42]

Too much safety? Or too much focus on exinguishment?

My view:

We tend to be reactionary, making policies, rules, and procedures based on prior bad outcomes. However, this practice often fails to address the root cause of the problem. I believe that the concept of two-in/two-out is sound and providing a RIT when firefighters are in a hazardous environment is a solid idea. However, it does not address the root causes of firefighters becoming lost or trapped inside burning buildings.

Your thoughts?

We shall always be reactionary. Simply not possible to plan ahead for everything. Learning from history is a great way to not repeat history. As ChiefKN said, 2in/2out as a priority, but not a show stopper is right on. Training on core basics is getting lost in the shuffle. I look at our own FF1 basic course and see FAST/RIT/RIC operations as part of the course now. Teaching brand new basic FF's these operations? They should be spending time on basics and things to keep them out of needing FAST, not how to perform FAST. Situational awareness, recognizing conditions, basic fire attach/ventilation...those are skills that need to be worked on. Too much time is spent on "worst case" scenarios as opposed to the bread & butter we actually deal with.

[dday05]

[QUOTE=Bones42;1236064] Training on core basics is getting lost in the shuffle. QUOTE]

100% correct! The lack of basic FF skills is becoming more of an issue. Like I said in another thread it amazes me we have people who can't wear their PPE properly or even conduct a search. Some people can't even function enough to pull a hose of the truck etc. etc... (and these people go interrior to try and extinguish a fire? Reminds me of a quote from Beverly Hils Cop "you got your guns and your badge and you're on the job"...

To add on to the first post... I will probably get beat up for this on here but we responded a few times last year where we were suppose to function as a RIT/FAST team and once we get on scene due to lack of man power get put into a suppression role. Is it right or wrong? There are a few ways to look at it I say.

[Catch22]

As a whole, I think you're right, the fire service is too reactionary. I think this is a lot of our problem, as well.

When I look at the fire service as a whole, I us fighting fires with the same tactics we did 50+ years ago. It's not just the "we've always done it this way" crowd, but the culture as a whole. The problem is that not only has the construction changed, but so has the fuel. We're seeing far more BTU's put out due to the synthetic fabrics in furniture, and that heat is going to lightweight trusses.

At the same time, we now have gear that is considerably better than what it was even 20 years ago. When we started putting guys in this gear, we had vets going into fires where they used to be able to feel the heat. In some cases, there are guys that went from a nomex pants, 3/4 boots, no SCBA and no hood to a full set of PBI/kevlar/whatever space-age material set of gear with a nomex and SCBA where they're fully encapsulated. While they were able to go deeper, they were also loosing that sense of "it's too hot".

As far as your culture of safety vs. culture of extinguishement, I ask you why we can't have both? For some reason it has become taboo to apply water from the exterior. Seriously, WTF? You don't have to apply water from only the interior to put a fire out, especially a compartmentalized fire that's confined to a basement, attic, or even a room. Since when is "defensive" not aggressive? Why is attacking from the exterior a "defensive" approach rather than "offensive"?

There are guys out there that invented things like cellar and piercing nozzles so that we can put water on a fire without entering the compartment. They have PPV fans to assist with ventilation and done correctly, you can ventilate without having to get on the truss roof. Yet you see numerous departments in this country that don't know what the "V" is in VES.

There's my little bit of a rant.

[LaFireEducator]

We shall always be reactionary. Simply not possible to plan ahead for everything. Learning from history is a great way to not repeat history. As ChiefKN said, 2in/2out as a priority, but not a show stopper is right on. Training on core basics is getting lost in the shuffle. I look at our own FF1 basic course and see FAST/RIT/RIC operations as part of the course now. Teaching brand new basic FF's these operations? They should be spending time on basics and things to keep them out of needing FAST, not how to perform FAST. Situational awareness, recognizing conditions, basic fire attach/ventilation...those are skills that need to be worked on. Too much time is spent on "worst case" scenarios as opposed to the bread & butter we actually deal with.

My volunteer department has decided to change gears in terms of training for at least the first half of this year.

We have recognized that our guys are lacking the "basics". We spent a lot of last year working on RIT, commercial operations and laying the groundwork for the start of an extrication program. It was decided to put much of that on hold and get back to the basics of residental fire operations for at least 5-6 months.

[nyckftbl]

Did you miss this part

"However, it does not address the root causes of firefighters becoming lost or trapped inside burning buildings.

Your thoughts? "

of the opening post? or are you just another LaFire attacker?

Did you not read LA's post? Its incorrect and he deserved to get bashed. The fact is over any time period you would like to quote recently, firefighter deaths in burning buildings hasnt increased, like he claimed.

[len1582]

We shall always be reactionary. Simply not possible to plan ahead for everything. Learning from history is a great way to not repeat history. As ChiefKN said, 2in/2out as a priority, but not a show stopper is right on. Training on core basics is getting lost in the shuffle. I look at our own FF1 basic course and see FAST/RIT/RIC operations as part of the course now. Teaching brand new basic FF's these operations? They should be spending time on basics and things to keep them out of needing FAST, not how to perform FAST. Situational awareness, recognizing conditions, basic fire attach/ventilation...those are skills that need to be worked on. Too much time is spent on "worst case" scenarios as opposed to the bread & butter we actually deal with.

I agree the basics need to be instilled in new FF's. That's a must. But they also need to be as versatile as possible because they very well could end up being sent as part of a RIT team relatively soon out of the academy. Last few classes we put on each had two days of RIT which also consisted of rescueing trapped FF's from stair carrys(up and down) drags, and ladder carrys. A skill everyone needs. We don't harp on "worse case", but as we all know things happen.

[LaFireEducator]

Did you not read LA's post? Its incorrect and he deserved to get bashed. The fact is over any time period you would like to quote recently, firefighter deaths in burning buildings hasnt increased, like he claimed.

Never stated firefighter deaths in burning buildings have increased.

I stated:

These are some of the things I see as factors for the increased number of firefighters seemingly getting into trouble more often.

Check the post.

This is a fact.

Dave Dodson sights a significant increase in the number of firefighters being caught in a flashover over the past 5 years while the number of fires are decreasing. There are other reports that state that more firefighters are getting in trouble while operating inside structures.

You'll probably deny it but the data indicates otherwise.

[Catch22]

Dave Dodson sights a significant increase in the number of firefighters being caught in a flashover over the past 5 years while the number of fires are decreasing. There are other reports that state that more firefighters are getting in trouble while operating inside structures.

You'll probably deny it but the data indicates otherwise.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit. We're encapsulating guys in gear designed to protect them and it's doing it's job. At the same time we've focused for several years on RIT/FAST and how to save guys that go down.

Perhaps we should focus training more on how to keep guys out of that kind of situation. We have the ability to put guys in live-burn trailers/buildings, but we're using class A combustibles. I'm not saying we should use other fuels, but I do believe when we get class A's to that 800+ degree mark at the source of the fire, we need to be reinforcing to the students that this is the point other fuels are getting close to reaching flashover and it's time to find the fire or find the way out.

At the same time, teaching them about building construction, fire behavior and how to connect the two. I know this is FF I and II stuff, but it seems FF I and II has turned into a class taught to teach a student how to pass the test, not how to be a firefighter. When we get new guys (FF I and II is a requirement to be hired), we go through 160 hours worth of basic training to get them ready to go on the truck. Most of the time that's not enough. They simply aren't getting what they need through most FF I and II courses, which is supposed to be the minimum standard.

[JohnVBFD]

or are you just another LaFire attacker?

Yup you got me, and to quote ""

[J.Beck]

Perhaps we should focus training more on how to keep guys out of that kind of situation.

Exactly!!

The focus should be on being proactive, not reactive.

[LaFireEducator]

Perhaps we should focus training more on how to keep guys out of that kind of situation. We have the ability to put guys in live-burn trailers/buildings, but we're using class A combustibles. I'm not saying we should use other fuels, but I do believe when we get class A's to that 800+ degree mark at the source of the fire, we need to be reinforcing to the students that this is the point other fuels are getting close to reaching flashover and it's time to find the fire or find the way out.

These are excelent points. we need to tech members how to read smoke, and how to recognize the signs of flashover, and almost as importantly, what the smoke indicates when it comes to structural intergity and collpase. there needs to be more education on lightweight building construction and how quickly it can fail.

Your point about the burn building ios especially critical. We are teaching guys how to read and attack fire in basically a Class A enviroment but let's be honest, the fires today are basically a Class B event and enviroment in solid rather than liquid form. The temps, the growth patterns and the potential for rapidly changing conditions are all basically Class B chaecteristics.

We also need to focus a whole lot more on identifying apotential mayday situation and self-rescue. The sad reality is that if a firefighter can't perform self rescue in the earl;y moments of an emergency, the chances of him escaping alive are greatly reduced.