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  • Stretching the second handline

    During Wednesday's webcast, Jeff Shupe said that he still feels a lot of departments are not stretching backup or second handlines at dwelling fires. He often hears that a single line in enough for the bread and butter dwellings.

    What happens in your district? Do you normally stretch a backup line for dwelling fires? Does the lack of motivation for that second line at a dwelling fire impact your operations for commercial fires? How often do you stretch a second line at commercial fires?

    You can find the webcast here: http://www.firehouse.com/webcasts/en...-dos-and-donts

    Pete

  • #2
    I followed along with the webcast - great job and very informative. I took away quite a bit and am in the process of reviewing several key elements mentioned in the program as to how they apply to me or how I can apply them myself.

    As for stretching a second line, my department routinely stretches a second line to the door, manned and ready to go - line charged, packs on, off air, etc. The second line is usually identical to the initial attack line in terms of length and size.

    The webcast has me re-evaluating our second line choice. I'm strongly leaning towards a bigger line. I can honestly say, if I'm the company officer when the time comes, it'll be the bigger of the two.

    Comment


    • #3
      Both crosslays come off the attack engine at every structural fire where there is entry being made.

      Probably 25% of the time it's never used, but it's on the ground and charged should it be needed as either a backup line, a line for a RIT team or to hit some exterior fire.

      We experience very few significant commercial fires. As a rule, the 1 3/4" line is the most common choice for those as well. Depending on the officer, the backup line may be another 1 3/4" or a 2 1/2". We have no firm policy/SOP on that.
      Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-18-2010, 05:55 AM.
      Train to fight the fires you fight.

      Comment


      • #4
        we will pull a a back-up line. as more companies arrive we assign one to the back up position.

        this is not a "second line" but one to immediately provide support for the first and protect egress for the first attack company.

        does it get done ALWAYS? no, fires are usually extinguished, undercontrol, into overhaul on room and content fires with the first line very rapidly. thus not often needing the second line to be fully stretch and charged.
        Originally Posted by madden01
        "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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        • #5
          When in Doubt Lay it out... That is how we do it.

          So more than likely both lines get pulled out.
          Sincerely,

          JuniorAFPD
          [email protected]

          Comment


          • #6
            I've seen very few working fires that didn't get a second line pulled and taken inside. The county SOP says that the 2nd arriving engine will pull the 2nd line. Usually both lines are 1 3/4, but for more than a room and contents, we may pull a 2 1/2.

            The times that a 2nd line has not been pulled are the exception, usually the fire extinguished by the first line before a crew arrives for the 2nd line, or not a working fire.

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            • #7
              We pull a 2nd line/ backup line at all building fires. That why the engines have two pre-connects.
              Stay Safe
              Bull


              “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
              - Capt. Marc Cox CFD

              Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
              -WINSTON CHURCHILL

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              • #8
                We routinely pull a second line of equal size. Recently we've given serious consideration to using a Vindicator nozzle on the second line as it will give us greater volume in the same size package if need be. The concern that we have with stretching a larger line (for us a 2.5") is that it's far slower and less maneuverable than the initial line (if it's the 1.75"). So if we need that second line to quickly cover the initial, they'll be delayed and further hampered by the tight quarters posed by the first line and members. Also, quite often that second line will be used to cover another area when the initial line has knockdown of the main body, again the 2.5" has big disadvantages in a small top mid sized residential occupancy, where we do most of our work.

                Commercial jobs get the 2.5" from the outset, and are backed up with the same. Of course conditions dictate tactics and a smaller line may be used when appropriate, but with significant thought given to ADULTS and the SOP of the 2.5" line.

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                • #9
                  A back up line is pulled at every working fire.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    almost every fire it gets pulled off, every once in a while the fire will be so small its out before the second crew gets the second line off but that's rare.

                    Always good to get the practice stretching lines, helps keep you sharp during the dry spells.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Are we talking a 2nd line or a backup line? Or do some people use the same hose for both jobs?

                      Standard for us...

                      1st line to the fire
                      2nd line above the fire
                      Backup line standing ready.


                      Commercial building will tend to have additional lines and additional backup lines.
                      "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                      • #12
                        Backup line gets assigned to one of our auto-aid engines. If the first line is working, it always gets backed up. The backup line can be used for the floor above if needed after knock down on the first floor or a 3rd line is stretched.

                        Great job to Jeff on the webcast!
                        "The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence, regardless of their chosen field of endeavor." - Vince Lombardi

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just expanding on what has been said, I like to call the first line the confinement line, at least as a teaching point. We tend to stop the first line at the point that we can best cover vertical access for search when the fire is on the first floor, or in the hall, wherever until a second line can cover egress. Teaching newbies that the first line is the attack line, gives them the sense that thy'll be going right in for the kill immediately which may not be the case.

                          Again, situations dictate tactics and a small fire that can rapidly be knocked down might get water immediately, while at other times just protecting the stairs is the first order of business. Getting a second line is important but only after the first is well placed.

                          Often it seems like 'we' do too much in the beginning and try to play catch up from that point on. I can't argue the safety of having a back-up line or second line for the second floor, but I can say that with reduced personnel, adequately stretching the first line is a priority.

                          I long for the day when we can roll up with properly staffed companies that can go about their individual assignments without having to mix personnel to complete tactical priorities. We teach Norman's 5 Firefighting Concepts so that all understand proper prioritization of assignments.
                          Last edited by RFDACM02; 12-20-2010, 10:01 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Usually, we only pull a 2nd line if it looks like the 1st one isn't putting the fire out. It normally does on most of our dwelling fires.

                            Commercial is a different story. May lay dual preconnects, wyed lines, or 2 1/2 depending on the amount of fire.
                            RK
                            cell #901-494-9437

                            Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

                            "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


                            Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE=FHEditor;1230797]
                              Originally posted by Bones42 View Post
                              Are we talking a 2nd line or a backup line? Or do some people use the same hose for both jobs?
                              Excellent point, thanks Bones Jeff mentioned that most people feel the second line is not needed because the first line will be enough to contain and extinguish the typical fire.

                              A poll that was conducted during the webcast showed that 68 percent of users bring a line to the floor above the fire, the rest do not.

                              Pete

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