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Two firefighter VES?

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  • ChiefSquirrel
    replied
    FF #1 goes into the room to search. FF #2 either stays at the tip or goes in too.

    If the smoke level is above the window sill and visibility is relatively good, FF #2 stays on the ladder. If the smoke level is below the window sill and visibility is poor, FF #2 goes into the room, but stays at the window to help keep FF #1 oriented either through voice or touch.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fireeaterbob
    replied
    That was a great link. I appreciate the response, too.

    Leave a comment:


  • RFD21C
    replied
    Originally posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    HMMMPHH....Ok, I think RFD cleared a few fuzzies up. I have a question pertaining to opening the door upon leaving...

    I have been taught to control the vent openings when possible. Approaching this tactic from the idea that heavy fire conditions are present somewhere near the room that was searched, opening the door upon exit would seem to create another path for fire spread rather than sticking to the principle of confinement. Find the fire, Confine the fire, Extinguish the fire...

    Opening the door (I think) would inevitably draw the fire that direction. Positive pressure ventilation not withstanding (meaning with no mechanical venting) this follows the teaching that you do not vent horizontally unless you have a line in place to begin suppression because the temperature curve may lessen briefly, then eventually the differences in high and low pressure zones and fuel/heat/oxygen ratios will optimize with the influx of fresh air and this, with the combination of hot gases will lead to a dramatic rise in temps and subsequent involvement of fire spread.

    Confused? I think if you open the door upon leaving then the fire and smoke will likely more into that compartment. Closing the door helps isolate that compartment from the fire and smoke. The open window will help ease conditions in that immediate compartment, not the entire structure. Or am I really missing something in thermal dynamics here?

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    The key is to corrdinate any ventalation efforts with hose line advancement. It is a balance of allowing air in and smoke and heat out. Any vent is going to cause the fire to grow. The key is to vent to allow to lift the heat and smoke just enough to allow the engine guy to make the push to the fire.

    When doing any kind of ventilation you have to look at the conditions and building, the advancement of the operation, and listen to the radio.

    I think the main difference here is the FDNY uses VES in corrdination with all of their other tactics. This allows them to leave the door open to allow for the vent.

    In many other parts of the country VES is a last ditch we have to search this room or a extreme circumstances case. In my mind the this is more of a break the window get in search and get back out type of search. However, it is not as cool to say on the radio as VES.

    Back to the orginal OP's question. I think it is best that you take the operation. Determine what you are trying to achieve. determine the steps need to be done to complete it. Then divide the task between the two firefighters.

    I would urge caution about using "VES" tactics hap-hazardly. This is a high risk high reward type of tactic. The firefighter must clearly understand fire behavior, building construction, and have experience to safely conduct it. Think about it for a min. You are entering through a confined opening into a room ahead of the fire, cut off with only one exit. Often times you are on the floor above the fire. Experience has proven to us that this is often the most dangerous place on the fireground.

    This is not to say that VES is not a valid or cowboy type of tactic. It just has to be understood on both the firefigther level and the department level.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I believe that by the time you make the second room, the FDNY can put enough engine guys in the building to take a deep breath and starve the fire of oxygen! I'm sure a few brothers from FDNY can explain but unless I'm totally off base I think they've indicated they complete the vent unless otherwise directed. I'm thinking actual water on the fire makes a difference. Clearly coordination is key, and they seem to have that pretty well down to a science.
    horizontal ventilation is always done in coordination with hoseline operations....with the exception of venting for life....but yeah, VESing a room with a probable/possible victim, after that room is searched, (depending on fire conditions, building type, etc, which is why your portable radio is a listening tool), you havent completed the vent portion if you keep that door closed.
    Last edited by nyckftbl; 11-03-2010, 12:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • RFDACM02
    replied
    Originally posted by Fireeaterbob View Post

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    I believe that by the time you make the second room, the FDNY can put enough engine guys in the building to take a deep breath and starve the fire of oxygen! I'm sure a few brothers from FDNY can explain but unless I'm totally off base I think they've indicated they complete the vent unless otherwise directed. I'm thinking actual water on the fire makes a difference. Clearly coordination is key, and they seem to have that pretty well down to a science.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fireeaterbob
    replied
    HMMMPHH....Ok, I think RFD cleared a few fuzzies up. I have a question pertaining to opening the door upon leaving...

    I have been taught to control the vent openings when possible. Approaching this tactic from the idea that heavy fire conditions are present somewhere near the room that was searched, opening the door upon exit would seem to create another path for fire spread rather than sticking to the principle of confinement. Find the fire, Confine the fire, Extinguish the fire...

    Opening the door (I think) would inevitably draw the fire that direction. Positive pressure ventilation not withstanding (meaning with no mechanical venting) this follows the teaching that you do not vent horizontally unless you have a line in place to begin suppression because the temperature curve may lessen briefly, then eventually the differences in high and low pressure zones and fuel/heat/oxygen ratios will optimize with the influx of fresh air and this, with the combination of hot gases will lead to a dramatic rise in temps and subsequent involvement of fire spread.

    Confused? I think if you open the door upon leaving then the fire and smoke will likely more into that compartment. Closing the door helps isolate that compartment from the fire and smoke. The open window will help ease conditions in that immediate compartment, not the entire structure. Or am I really missing something in thermal dynamics here?

    OK, after re-reading RFDs FDNY explaination, I get it. You are using a window to complete the stairwell (chimney effect) vent. I would think you would not want to open a door in every room, but again my thermal dynamics may be a bit weak. Can any FDNYers elaborate?
    Last edited by CKirk922; 11-02-2010, 07:06 PM. Reason: additions. Mis-spellings

    Leave a comment:


  • RFD21C
    replied
    In my mind VES is a search that is a one room search. Then out the window and move down the exterior to the next window/room.

    A search using a window as your point of entry would be firefighter enters through a window and searches the entire occupancy.


    (hopefully one fo the FDNY guy can confirm or correct this)
    It is my understanding that VES was developed by the FDNY to address high fire death rates in queen anne style victorian houses. They noticed a high number of fire deaths in these types of buildings most of these deaths occurred in upper floor bedrooms. Since these style houses have pitched roofs the roof man would not be on the roof cutting (FDNY does not cut pitched roofs). In order to speed the search and provide for vertical ventilation. The roofman and later the OV man (after his duties are performed). Will preform VES.
    The search is speed up because now you have the inside team searching starting at the fire area and working there way out. Also now you have firefighters providing targeted searches in areas of high likely hood of a victim (I.e. A bedroom). Two groups of searches versus one.
    Upon exiting the room that has just been searched the door is re-opened. This provides for the Vent portion of the tactic. This was designed due to the large open stair cases, which would allow the smoke and heat to travel up from the first floor and collect on the upper floors. By taking the window and opening the door upon leaving you are creating a vent point high in the building.
    Over time the tactic has been bastartized by departments all over the company.

    This is what I have come to understand as the orgins of VES. maybe like i said above one of the FDNY guys can correct me on this. I am not from that area or am I huge FDNY buff. This is what i was taught many years ago in a college class I took, so my memory might be alittle foggy on the deatils.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dibbs12
    replied
    Originally posted by RFD21C View Post
    Ok, I am alittle confused here on the terminology.

    Are we talking about VES or searching via entry through a window?

    here is a good article on VES

    https://www.myfirecompanies.com/down...=DownLoadFiles
    I'm confused, what do you consider to be the difference between VES and searching via entry through a window?

    ffmedcbk1-i am kinda taken back by the question..... does you dept do it with one or three guys?

    two guys is standard ves for us, second guy climbs up and monitors the window conditions and keeps voice contact with interior ff. we typically only butt the ladder if on a hard surface (concrete/asphalt).
    In the article RFD21C posted it talks about one person VES, thats where my original question originated from.

    Leave a comment:


  • nyckftbl
    replied
    If you dont re-open the door before leaving you only ESed.

    And in a lot of places its a standard tactic, not a last resort type of deal.

    Leave a comment:


  • RFD21C
    replied
    Ok, I am alittle confused here on the terminology.

    Are we talking about VES or searching via entry through a window?

    here is a good article on VES

    https://www.myfirecompanies.com/down...=DownLoadFiles

    Leave a comment:


  • Dibbs12
    replied
    Originally posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    OOPPs, sorry Dibbs, I missed your explaination; Didn't mean to walk on your traffic there
    No worries, the more explanations the better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fireeaterbob
    replied
    OOPPs, sorry Dibbs, I missed your explaination; Didn't mean to walk on your traffic there

    Leave a comment:


  • Firefighter Germany
    replied
    @Dibbs12
    @Fireeaterbob

    thanks for the good explination. What a like in the us tactics, that you are very focued on the targets (rescueing victims). You have a lot of small fire stations with a few apparatus to reach the incidients asap. You try to finde the victims asap by searching where they are, etc.


    Best regards

    Florian

    Leave a comment:


  • Fireeaterbob
    replied
    Originally posted by Firefighter Germany View Post
    Hi together,

    sorry, I do not know something about the VES tactic, so maybe my questions is supid.



    If you enter a room, why dou you not advance the search in the next room? For me it sounds pretty time consuming to leave the room, put the ladder to the next room and do it again. Moreover not all rooms have a window, so you search only rooms with a windows.


    Thanks for your feedback and best regards

    Florian
    It is not a stupid question.
    If the front of a structure is heavily involved in fire or even more of the structure is involved BUT there are rooms that are still survivable but not accessable, or in danger of becoming unsurvivable then VES might be used.

    Vent, Enter, and Search is what VES means.

    Vent the compartment by breaking through the window and removing it completely.
    Enter the space and go to the door ingress/egress door (door to the hallway) in the room and CLOSE IT. This buys the search team time, and it helps prevent the open window from drawing the fire and smoke to the open window.

    Quickly search the compartment and get out. In some instances, you might check the door and see if you can advance further.

    Keep in mind that this is a HIGH RISK/HIGH REWARD tactic. If the open window draws the fire toward the search team or if the team cannot close off the room from other interior areas thus allowing the fire to over run them, then this becomes VERY dangerous. However, these are the places where survivable victims are likely to be found in advanced fire conditions.

    This tactic is used one room at a time to search for viable victims when the rest of the areas are not viable. Get in, get out, move to the next window and repeat. This is not a standard search, rather an option when all other options are diminishing.

    If a room doesn't have a window crews might breech an interior wall from one room to another to search a compartment rather than enter a hallway to go into the next room. This would be the case if the hallway was heavily involved in fire.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dibbs12
    replied
    Originally posted by Firefighter Germany View Post
    Hi together,

    sorry, I do not know something about the VES tactic, so maybe my questions is supid.



    If you enter a room, why dou you not advance the search in the next room? For me it sounds pretty time consuming to leave the room, put the ladder to the next room and do it again. Moreover not all rooms have a window, so you search only rooms with a windows.


    Thanks for your feedback and best regards

    Florian
    VES is done to search either known victim locations, or areas where there is a high probability of a victim being located (most likely bedrooms). VES becomes the tactic of choice when your access to those areas is blocked for whatever reason, or when its quicker or easier to access them from the outside. You don't typically continue your search outside of the room (besides a quick sweep) because the conditions in the hallway may be untenable so you would want to get the bedroom door shut ASAP(you would start your VES closest to the fire room, unless you have a known victim location), and because you are focusing mainly on bedrooms (which should have windows)

    Leave a comment:

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