Large hand line nozzle choice.

[JSMV72]

I am wanting to ad a 2 1/2 inch attack line to our hose bed lay. We would use 200 ft. of 2 1/2 inch on a dead mans lay. The question I have is what would be everyone's choice of nozzle. I was thinking about using a 2 1/2 inch shutoff with a smooth bore nozzle, maybe a one inch or 1 1/8 inch. We have a large main street with many commercial structure's in town, also many of the newer homes being built are over 5000 sq. feet with vaulted ceilings. I am trying to convince the old timers that with a big fire you need big water.

[ffmedcbk1]

type in "smothbore"


i choose an akron brass 1 3/8th inch waterway (model 1442) no pistol grip (those belong on handguns) with a 1 and 1/4" tip. it is all about the "rate of delivery".


hope that helps.....

[BULL321]

We use a TFT Blitzfire, it works great and is very versified.

[GTRider245]

I agree with the Blitzfire- IF you have two seperate 2 1/2" lines on the truck. You are pretty much limited to exterior ops with a Blitzfire. Other than that, I would go with a Elkhart shutoff, stream shaper and a 1 1/8 tip. That should get you about 250 gpm.

And as mentioned, leave the pistol grips on the trash lines and handguns.

[nameless]

whats a dead man's lay?

Go with the smooth bore, tip size can be up to 1 1/4. The blitzfire and other pocket monitors are alright, but if you want to use one of those you have the time to remove the tip and add that. The handline you can hit from the outside and proceed inside, not going to happen with the pocket monitors.

[BULL321]

We use the blitzfire with a 3" line, We don't carry and 2 1/2" on the truck. and we don't have any problem advancing the line inside, and talk about flowing some water.

[kuh shise]

Try to make the Pump Operator's job as easy as possible. Lets say that you are running 200' of 1 3/4" with an automatic nozzle for the normal attack line. You could be running a P.D.P. of 140 to 180 psi and delivering somewhere between 120 gpm to 170 gpm with those lines. Lets pick the middle (160 psi) Then a 200 ft. - 2 1/2" line with a blitz fire will deliver about 350 gpm at 160 psi P.D.P. If you choose to use a 1 1/8" SS nozzle, then the line will need to be gated back to 85 psi to properly supply the 265 gpm at 50 psi nozzle pressure. If you choose to use a 1 1/4" tip (max for a 2 1/2" line) then delivery will be 328 gpm with a discharge pressure gated back to 104 psi. at the engine.
There is a second problem concerning nozzle choice for hand lines. The reaction force and hose line weight are going to determine the manpower requirements. The 1 1/8" nozzle will have a reaction force of 95 lbs add to this the weight of the hose for 30 ft (about 100 lbs) so the work load is 200 lbs. By using 3 FF's the work load becomes a reasonable figure of 67 lbs per man. Reaction force for the 1 1/4" nozzle is 117 lbs, so the work load per man is 72 lbs per man. This is still a reasonable figure.
Replacing the smooth bore with an automatic (handline nozzle or Blitz Fire) results in a nozzle reaction of 175 lbs. This is clearly beyond being used as a hand line with a reaction force of 175 lbs and a total work load of 265 lbs. A three man crew would need to handle 88 lbs per man, and is clearly beyond the capability of a crew performing interior attack. The Blitz Fire will not lend itself to easy movement without shutting down. It does allow for higher application rates with fewer firefighters. (1 or 2)
With proper training, attack crews can be taught to use the feature of the automatic nozzle by cutting back the flow (gate back the bail) when moving and then open up after a stable location has been gained.
So the answer you are seeking is NOT cut and dried, but depends upon your normal manpower, pump operator experience and attack crew training. I hope these thoughts haven't muddied the water. Real life is seldom an easy black or white answer.

[FyredUp]

nameless,

Deadman's lay: A hose bed with a nozzle or other appliance attached that is not preconnected to a discharge. Lengths may vary anywhere from the common 200 foot bed to upwards of 1000 feet depending on local needs.

While I agree that one of the pocket deluges makes an excellent choice for a deadlay, or preconnected, 2 1/2 or 3 inch line, I also feel that a line with a standard 2 1/2 nozzle is needed. An aggressive moving forward line needs to have that nozzle for ease of movement.

My choice would be either a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 inch tip. Too me the 1 inch tip is simply too small when you can flow that amount froma 1 3/4 inch line, or even better from a 2 inch line.

I know I have said this a million times but here we go again. My volly FD uses 2 inch hose and our nozzles are Elkhart break aparts with a 200 at 75 combo tip backed by a 1 1/4 inch smoothbore slug tip. Yes, I know we aren't supposed to do that but it works for us. So telling us it won't work is like telling a bumblebee it can't fly!

[FyredUp]

Try to make the Pump Operator's job as easy as possible. Lets say that you are running 200' of 1 3/4" with an automatic nozzle for the normal attack line. You could be running a P.D.P. of 140 to 180 psi and delivering somewhere between 120 gpm to 170 gpm with those lines. Lets pick the middle (160 psi) Then a 200 ft. - 2 1/2" line with a blitz fire will deliver about 350 gpm at 160 psi P.D.P. If you choose to use a 1 1/8" SS nozzle, then the line will need to be gated back to 85 psi to properly supply the 265 gpm at 50 psi nozzle pressure. If you choose to use a 1 1/4" tip (max for a 2 1/2" line) then delivery will be 328 gpm with a discharge pressure gated back to 104 psi. at the engine.
There is a second problem concerning nozzle choice for hand lines. The reaction force and hose line weight are going to determine the manpower requirements. The 1 1/8" nozzle will have a reaction force of 95 lbs add to this the weight of the hose for 30 ft (about 100 lbs) so the work load is 200 lbs. By using 3 FF's the work load becomes a reasonable figure of 67 lbs per man. Reaction force for the 1 1/4" nozzle is 117 lbs, so the work load per man is 72 lbs per man. This is still a reasonable figure.
Replacing the smooth bore with an automatic (handline nozzle or Blitz Fire) results in a nozzle reaction of 175 lbs. This is clearly beyond being used as a hand line with a reaction force of 175 lbs and a total work load of 265 lbs. A three man crew would need to handle 88 lbs per man, and is clearly beyond the capability of a crew performing interior attack. The Blitz Fire will not lend itself to easy movement without shutting down. It does allow for higher application rates with fewer firefighters. (1 or 2)
With proper training, attack crews can be taught to use the feature of the automatic nozzle by cutting back the flow (gate back the bail) when moving and then open up after a stable location has been gained.
So the answer you are seeking is NOT cut and dried, but depends upon your normal manpower, pump operator experience and attack crew training. I hope these thoughts haven't muddied the water. Real life is seldom an easy black or white answer.

Nice job on passing along some valuable information once again.

We do disagree on the automatic nozzle. I will revert to what I have seen time and time again with automatic nozzles. The gating back of the nozzle to combat excessive nozzle reaction. You can call it a training issue if you like but it transcends paid and volly FD's in my area.

Do automatic nozzles work? Of course. That isn't the issue in my mind.

[JSMV72]

Thanks all for the feedback. We do currently have 200 ft. of 3 inch line connected to an Akron Blitz monitor that will flow 500 gpm. But like others said, it is not portable, once it is in place for the most part it has to stay there unless you shut down the line. That is the reason we are looking at adding a 2 1/2 inch hand line. I also did the math for nozzle reaction and came up with the same figures. After reading the replies it looks like a 1 1/8 inch smooth bore will be the way we will go.

[MemphisE34a]

Another point

If you have the space and the line is not going to be preconnected anyway, I would not limit myself to the maximum of a 200 foot line.

I would make any deadload at least 400 feet.

[nameless]

nameless,

Deadman's lay: A hose bed with a nozzle or other appliance attached that is not preconnected to a discharge. Lengths may vary anywhere from the common 200 foot bed to upwards of 1000 feet depending on local needs.

oh we always called it a dead load or a static load/bed. Seems kind of grim to call it deadman

[TVFR9923]

You might want to take a look at the "Blitz Attack" Vindicator nozzle.

http://1ststriketech.com/

[neiowa]

Thanks all for the feedback. We do currently have 200 ft. of 3 inch line connected to an Akron Blitz monitor that will flow 500 gpm. But like others said, it is not portable, once it is in place for the most part it has to stay there unless you shut down the line. That is the reason we are looking at adding a 2 1/2 inch hand line. I also did the math for nozzle reaction and came up with the same figures. After reading the replies it looks like a 1 1/8 inch smooth bore will be the way we will go.

Try out a 2-1/2" Akron ZeroTorque (ZT). If you're married to a particular brand or style tip, get the ZT as a breakapart and use your flavor of tip.

I've used the ZT and it does reduce the perceived workload for the nozzleman.

[FyredUp]

oh we always called it a dead load or a static load/bed. Seems kind of grim to call it deadman

We call it a dead lay here.

I just defined the term the way it was posted here.