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Negligent Box Cribbing?

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  • #16
    Tim...I forgot to mention. There has been some good research lately on using "shorter / wider" timbers for cribbing. ex. 2x4 or 4x6 on their side. They did a crush test on a box crib that was made with 2x4s and they could not get it to fail...it just slowly crushed into what looked like one big solid box.

    What makes a box crib fail is "roll-over" of the timbers. By minimizing the heigth of the individual timbers you will be increasing the stability of the box.

    So...it sounds like long and wide is the answer.

    Comment


    • #17
      You know all the years I have looked at that chart (and its been out way before '98) I never noticed where they measure the width.
      With that in mind I'm going to recommend 24" cribbing, it will give us 48" at 3 to 1.
      Thanks for clearing that up. I've got a drill to present in 3 weeks and now will not be giving out inaccurate info.

      Their is always something to learn.

      Back to the original, unless it is a very good lawyer I don't know if they will investigate enough to uncover the negligence. Are you guilty and responsible for the accident, YES, but I don't know if it would be discovered.

      Comment


      • #18
        I'm another one that's not a lawyer, but from what I've been taught, three things must be proven for a successful negligence suit:
        • There was a duty to act
        • That duty was breached
        • You acted outside your scope of training/expertise
        • That breach or action resulted in further harm


        But then again, if someone can win millions for burning themselves on a cup of coffee because they weren't warned it was hot, I would assume we could get sued for anything.

        Comment


        • #19
          Catch22,

          I think you hit the nail on the head. You said:

          "You acted outside your scope of training/expertise."

          If you are trained to know that that box crib height limit is 15", and you build it 30" tall anyway, have you just acted outside your scope of training? Or have you acted inside your scope of training but intentionally violated it? Either way...

          Tim
          www.rescue42.com

          Comment


          • #20
            To say a 4x4 crib stack is limited to 15" is just wrong.Might be depending on your footprint but a 4x4 stack can be in excess of 30" if built right.I can assure you that 15" in an TT underride is going to get you absolutely nowhere unless you happen to build it under the rear axle.So you need to adopt a different strategy or create a larger "footprint".As far as the legalise/liability standpoint,that will vary state to state.As has been aptly pointed out, what you can do will depend greatly on your training,experience,and the materials you use.These and other issues are discussed at some length in the BRR program.Along with some resources you might not think about using.I urge anyone involved in such operations to obtain all the information they can on lifting and blocking from multiple sources and apply this knowledge to day to day ops.There will be times that 6x6 or even 8x8's may be more appropriate for use.And there is WIDESPREAD misconception of correct cribbing techniques.Thanks Tim for bringing up a vital but misunderstood operation. T.C.

            Comment


            • #21
              I found this the other day, Every one may be interested in it. Be sure to click were it says next page at the bottom, and Chart of compression results at the bottom of the second page.
              http://www.cribpac.com/cribtest.html
              Last edited by LeeJunkins; 08-31-2006, 10:41 AM.
              http://www.midsouthrescue.org
              Is it time to change our training yet ?

              Comment


              • #22
                Rescue 101,

                If you check you'll see that I didn't say that a 4X4 box crib was limited to 15". What I said is that a 4X4 box crib of 18" long 4X4's with 2 corners of the box under the load is limited to 15", and that is true per the FEMA/USACE standards (the only ones I know of).

                The only way you could ever build a 4X4 box crib over 30" high is with longer cribbing and more corners under the load. The max height of a box made with 18" 4X4's with all 4 corners under the load is 30", but not more. See the math above or check the FEMA/USACE spec.

                I'm not picking on you, but I think you represent the point we're discussing. You are a very experienced Firefighter and a Training & Safety division Chief, and you make a good point that 15" in a TT underride won't get you far, but (I think) you are then suggesting we knowingly violate the limits of safe cribbing height to get the job done, and I disagree with that. I assume any certified BRR class would teach the FEMA/USACE cribbing standards.

                I agree about the widespread misconceptions of correct cribbing rules. If you check ADSNWFLD's post, you'll see that this discussion is doing some good in correcting some misconceptions.

                Tim
                www.rescue42.com

                Comment


                • #23
                  My point was apparently misunderstood Tim.I'm NOT suggesting you work outside the safety limits of your equipment,ANY of it.And I don't think I've got an 18" stick on my rig anywhere unless it's a wedge stick.But cribbing is an interesting subject.Frank Maltese has done extensive research on cribbing and has made up some very nice sets.He's experimented with various types of wood in a 100 ton plus press.I would regard him as an authority on the subject of type vs load.And I believe he has some findings you would find interesting.But looking at this matter from an abstract point of view: Every day the fire service does things that are not "book correct"and saves lives doing it.The same applies to cribbing. Is it right? Not my place to judge.I believe in offering the best training that you can get. Learn the principles and practice them.But I DO NOT believe there is an experienced,active extricator that can say with any honesty that they haven't pushed the edge somewhere in their career,myself included. Cribbing probably isn't the best place to do this but I've seen my share of horror stories with it.But thanks for keeping me honest,T.C.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Frank Maltese has done extensive research on cribbing and has made up some very nice sets.He's experimented with various types of wood in a 100 ton plus press.I would regard him as an authority on the subject of type vs load.And I believe he has some findings you would find interesting

                    TC I just posted it in the post above you.
                    http://www.midsouthrescue.org
                    Is it time to change our training yet ?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hehe Lee,I was skimming right thru, saw the cribpac,didn't notice the test part.On this particular subject no harm in a double posting.I kinda like stirring Tim up once in awhile,He's got a lot of great products and is a good source of information for debate.Trying to catch him napping however,...... T.C.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Just call me the referee I am keeping track of this thread, it is some thing that we all are failing to teach enough of. I didn't realize how dumb I was to it until I set in on one of Big Rigs classes last year. I would really like to get a class just on this subject in our school we are planning.
                        http://www.midsouthrescue.org
                        Is it time to change our training yet ?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Nap? I don't nap!

                          Naps are for saps and other undesirable chaps.

                          I like Frank's study on cribbing for his analysis on hardwood vs. softwood. Go Doug Fir!

                          Note there is nothing on Frank's site concerning crib height. Back to FEMA/USACE, which to my knowledge is the only standard available.

                          R101, you're smart with your longer cribbing. Unfortunately, most of what I see is still 18", and the crews don't know ANY cribbing rules or standards. 10 feet tall? Sure, why not!



                          Nap. Harumph...

                          Tim
                          www.rescue42.com

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Once again my well educated friend, you read too far thru the post.It's virtually impossible to catch you napping as was my point.If you think however,that I won't stop trying: THINK AGAIN! I WAS napping when I responded to your original post and didn't catch the amended version with the 18" clause.That being said there is a local church being refurbed in town and it's sitting on timber cribs I GUARANTEE are higher than 15 inches(yes,the blocks are bigger than 4x4)But I KNOW the footprint is smaller than the Fema/Usace recommends.Again,does that make it right? NOPE, but there are crews working in there everyday and the occasional Osha inspector.As far as classes on cribbing,it would be my opinion that either Tim or Billy would put on a class if the price and timing were right.And you would wind up with a bunch of people wondering why they ever did what they have in the past.Myself,I'm a winching specialist:in cribbing a mere student but ALWAYS willing to learn.The one sure thing I know about cribbing is you NEVER have enough with you.We need to have cribbing in pill form like those little Martians on the bugs bunny show.Just add a drop of water; POOF! you've got a 6x6.If life could only be so easy. T.C.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              doesn't it all come down to the type of situation you are in? What if you don't have any other means of stabilization and the patient is red and the only way that you can work safely is to go over the height limit. Is it safe? Is it negligence. Every situation is different and you do what you have to do. Are we just going to let someone die because "ITS AGAINST WHAT WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT" or are we going to take that chance ? I say take the chance and do what you have to do.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                chavoman,
                                I say take the chance and do what you have to do
                                No offence bro. but I highly disagree. This attitude is what puts us in that situation.
                                Are we just going to let someone die because "ITS AGAINST WHAT WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT"
                                No with this attitude we are going to let one of our people and a patient die, because as you said "ITS AGAINST WHAT WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT" and we did not prepare the equipment we were taught we would need. That is what this thread is all about, finding out what we need and training our people to use it properly so that we are not caught in that situation.

                                or are we going to take that chance ? Hey I am just as guilty as anyone and everyone on here has stated the same, but is the next chance the BIG one, or are we going to train and prepare to do the next one right?

                                Every situation is different and you do what you have to do. Are we just going to let someone die because "ITS AGAINST WHAT WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT" or are we going to take that chance ?
                                This is a twisted version of an old old fire department saying, Chief Confusses says " we alllllways done it that way and it alllllways worked"
                                Last edited by LeeJunkins; 09-03-2006, 04:39 PM.
                                http://www.midsouthrescue.org
                                Is it time to change our training yet ?

                                Comment

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