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heavy cribbing vs. deflated tires

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  • #16
    Skip, I didn't say tire popping was wrong. However, you obviously feel that the tires must be deflated to properly stabilize the vehicle.

    [ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: rmoore ]</p>

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    • #17
      Why are people so tunnel visioned?

      EACH AND EVERY ACCIDENT IS DIFFERENT!

      We've been to accidents where sabilisation was needed and others where nothing was needed. We've experimented with deflation and we still use it occassionally on vehicles such as 4x4's because they're so high and have more suspension movement than the average car.

      I totally agree with Ron though, Check and re-check, regardless of what method is used.... <br /> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
      Luke

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      • #18
        Further to my last post on this topic-

        Who cares what the tow company thinks of us deflating tyres!

        Who cares if the tyres cost $150.00 each!

        <br />If my actions as a rescuer or OIC saved that persons life, or lessened their chance of "secondary injury" whilst the extrication is being performed, then I've done my job, and it has been done properly.

        If you guys are concerned about the damage done to the car whilst extricating, then you've lost sight of the big picture and what we're there to do.

        If you can risk a lawsuit based on these sort of actions then there is something seriously wrong with your legal system! <br /> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

        [ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: lutan ]</p>
        Luke

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        • #19
          One question for the Posts that I read, How are you Cribbing?? For Years The Fire co. that I am on did the Old Lift the fender routeen, A few Years Ago we moved to using a wedge, Check Check and check again, every time something is done to that MV check. If I feel the Need to deflate the tire, I will, But If I crib correctly, check, check .... we will be OK.

          This is only my thoughts, not the thoughts of any of the co's I am associated with

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          • #20
            Let me fill you in on a little secret. It's called "TERC". TERC are the people that bring you the extrication competition series. Skip, myself and a whole lot of others on here faithfully attend and participate in 7-9 compititions a year for the past several years. What does this mean? It means that 15-20 of the best teams in the world run through 2 senerios per competition. In two short days we see, analize, critique, and LEARN from 40 of the most God awful crashes you have ever seen.

            In my mind, no one can be any expert since we are not dealing with an exact science. But we are with a huge number of open minded, dedicated rescuers that are willing to watch, LEARN and share good and bad ideas and intovations with their peirs.

            Check out <a href="http://www.terc.org" target="_blank">www.terc.org</a> to find a competition near you.

            [ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: rmoore ]</p>

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            • #21
              Ok, I see that a previous post was modified and most of the offensive content removed. Because of this my last posting which was a result of that may seem a bit confusing or misplaced. I thank Ron for attempting to restore decentcy and the learning enviroment. <br /> Zmag

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              • #22
                I think everyone would agree that there are times and places that all techniques are needed. The tire deflating issue will be around for years, it's yet one more tool that we have to use. The big question is the same as it is with a thousand other issues in the fire service. Is it a tool that is over-used, or mis-understood, and unfortunately used incorrectly. There are a million good ideas out that look and sound ideal for our uses, but when you take it to the street is sometimes less than practical. In my personal, and yet completely unimportant opinion, I think that the suspension movement in the car makes very little difference in the typical extrication effort. It's the non-typical extrications that bring about these innovative ideas, and practices. We just need to be open minded, and realize that not every technique that we know is applicable for every extrication.

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                • #23
                  With all due respect to those of us that enjoy and participate in competitions, but I have yet to see a single God awful crash at a competition.

                  What I see at a competition is a staged controlled environment where nobody is dying, traffic isn't whizzing by at 70mph twenty feet away and no idiots are stopping to ask if there was an accident. And you ain't worried about a drunk driving through your wreck at 0300 either.

                  When will a guy in a TERC competition ever worry about and have the real urgency of someone dying on him and have to make a real "just open the door and pull 'em out" load and go decision?

                  Try as we might, we cannot simulate that urgency.

                  When will a guy working a rescue in a TERC competition ever really worry about an airbag exploding in his face?

                  Never.

                  When do we in real life?

                  Every single accident since the Dayton deployment was released.

                  When will a TERC competitor worry about anything other than the next team and if he is doing the job "text book" safe?

                  At a competition you've got absolutely nothing to worry about except whether the next team is going to be better or not because you're being graded in points not in people.

                  Please, and again with all due respect and whether it is misintened, implied or meant that way, spare us the "we're better because we compete" speech.

                  I've seen people that compete in legitimate on scene action. They did a good job, but I wasn't impressed.

                  They also did things they wouldn't dare do in a competition.

                  [ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]</p>
                  It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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                  • #24
                    A reply to BF 443."Everybody in our valley uses flatbeds anyway".I own a fair size towing company up here in the Southwest mountains of Maine.Out of my six tow trucks guess how many are flatbeds?Answer ONE!Flatbeds are wonderful for transport but just about as useful as tits on a trout for recovery (vehicles over stone walls,in ditches,out in the woods etc.)While it is true you can do these things with a flatbed I will tell you as a owner and a highly trained recovery professional with over 25 years experience that you will tear hell out of your flatbed if you do.NO DOMESTIC MANUFACTURER of towing equipment will encourage you to use a flatbed for these purposes.And a line I like to give law enforcement when they "insist" on a flatbed;How do you suppose we ever moved broken vehicles before they invented flatbeds which have only been commercially popular since the oh say mid 80's?I HAVE NEVER had a vehicle I couldn't move with a conventional tow truck and these include: Broke in two,burners,frt/rear stuffed.broken trailers,etc.With a tow truck to do a out of the road recovery you use 1 lane(unless it's a TT)with a hauler 1.5 ,2.0, they just by nature take up more room.I'm not saying they're not handy,just not always the best choice for the job.You tell me what you have for the vehicle and the problem(paint a "picture") I'll assign the proper equipment.T.C. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

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                    • #25
                      So, Rescue 101, You are saying that the Tow Truck operator should have no problem dealing with us deflating tires? I gather from your post that no matter what wrecker operator arives with, he or she, should be ready to handle the Tow Job whether the tires are inflated or not!

                      So that really puts us back to the point what is best for our consumer? my vote is for Rock Solid and to me that typically means deflating as part of that package! I know there are those of you that disagree, and if I cannot help you see the light (from mine and others points of view) I feel disapointed, but I am not here just to argue but to advocate for what I think is the best method to achieve our ultimate goal to deliver the best of care to those that need our services
                      Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
                      Carl D. Avery

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                      • #26
                        You're vote is rock solid, then that's your vote, not the gospel. No light to come to pard.

                        My vote is either way works equally well.

                        Not the gospel.

                        No light here either.

                        But my obviously limited, lack of non-contest experience with 40 of the most gawd awful wrecks I've ever seen annually, has shown either way works equally well 100% of the time.
                        It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I agree with a lot that has been said here in favor of block chock and deflate tires as a means of stabalization, but why cut up a good set of tires. I have in my 12years of FFing never blasted a hole in the side of a tire to deflate it. For me that is an uncontroled action when you have 30-100 PSI coming at you from who knows where. our SOPs state that tire deflation is to be done by pulling the valve stem out of the rim. on tires that have a metal stem that is bolted in we cut the end of the stem off and let the air out in a controled manner. We carry a pair of vise grips that have a cutter built into them for this purpose. This also lets the air out gently and allows the car to settle rather than drop suddenly onto the blocking. Do it by the book folks CHOCK BLOCK DELATE AND RECHECK and RECHECK throughout the extrication. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

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                          • #28
                            Just a quick point here, there is another way of deflating tires, I whole heartedly DO NOT endorse stabbing the sidewalls of tires!

                            For a very small investment you can go to your local car parts store and pick up some self-locking air chucks (You know like the guys in the tire shop use) 4 of them is a good idea. Then attach a small piece of pipe on it and use that to attache to the tire's stem. It gives you total control of the deflation and the ability to reinflate if need be later.

                            My friend Mike Schmidt -- aka ZMAG -- <a href="http://www.zmagrescue.com/" target="_blank">http://www.zmagrescue.com/</a> -- sells a set of these all ready made up, but you can build them yourself with very little investment and minimal effort. My friends in Clinton NJ attach one to each of the step chocks they have. So they have them right there when they Crib up to the frame/uni-body/space-frame and then deflate the tires to de-activate the suspension. I Hope this Helps <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

                            [ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Carl Avery ]</p>
                            Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
                            Carl D. Avery

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                            • #29
                              Carl,I'd be lying if I told you I'm tickled to death to pull up on a car with 4 flat tires.But if it's a wreck and it's in my response district I'd probably be the one who let the air out.'Course I'm also gonna use a valve stem tool so I can put the air back in.All the little trucks have dollies so flat or not they'll go down the road.Slice 'em,dice 'em I'll get them to the shop one way or another even if they're in a little ball.I've see them so bent even letting the air out wouldn't help,the axles aren't touching the ground.Do whatcha gotta do.we'll make it go away.Hehe T.C. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

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                              • #30
                                Whats all this talk about $150 tires? A valve stem only costs about $2.00. Let's look at the big picture, and if it's necessary, do it.

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