heavy cribbing vs. deflated tires

[friendship2829]

which do you think would do the best job in this scenario: 4-door late model car. all 4 on the road, driver and front passenger trapped, no major injuries.

would deflating the tires be best, given that cribbing is no object, talk to the wrecker driver on the scene and see if his/her oppinion differs from yours.

[John Dibacco]

Unless the wrecker driver is Ron Moore, I think their opinion doesn't factor into my decision- making.

Just my crack at humor - I know, "I'll keep my day job!"

Happy holidays to all.

[rmoore]

I know that in rare cases, the patient we extricate will turn around and sue us for further injuring them during the rescue. In some of the cases that I have been involved in as an expert witness, the rescuers did make things worse for the patient.

I am fearful that vehicle stabilization will not be considered complete by the attorneys for these families unless we have deflated the tires. In court, they'll get us to state that we did chock and block the car, making it stable at that point. Then they'll get us to tell about all the heavy items we removed from the car, glass, doors, roof, other patients. Their paid automotive engineer experts will then explain that until the tires are flat, the vehicle's suspension system is still under load. They'll make the case that "extrication weightloss" caused the vehicle to not be stable. What will we say to that?

My solution... chock, block, deflate, check and recheck.

Ron Moore

[Carl Avery]

[quote]Originally posted by rmoore:<br /><strong>[EDITED]<br />My solution... chock, block, deflate, check and recheck.

Ron Moore</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amen Ron! I think all of us that got in the 3 page debate previously that advocated Tire Deflations would agree with your solution! I do hope that nobody thinks that Tire Deflation alone would do the job just as just cirbbing alone won't cut it! Hmmm will this one make 3 pages? lets see

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[PhyerPhyter]

You are obviously forgetting something. If the vehicle is cribbed properly - by the frame and at all four corners -( 4 point or 3 point minimum) the suspension does not come in to play. You never crib by utilizing any suspension components, ie axle, control arms, tires etc.

Deflating the tires will have no effect to vehicle stabilization if it is done properly. The purpose of cribbing is to give the vehicle solid support/contact with the ground.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: rmoore ]</p>

[firemangeorge]

On the contrary, the springs that suspend the car will be able to lift the car off the cribbing if enough weight is removed from the car. Lets say the driver weighs 190 lbs and the passsenger 130lbs. Remove the driver and you have removed 190lbs of force holding the car on the cribbing. The suspension of a vehicle is designed to load the springs only partially, not completely, which keeps the tires in solid contact with the ground during all types of road and driving conditions. So, removing weight can allow the springs to raise the vehicle. In addition, if you were to crib a Cadillac that has auto leveling and cause it to become out of level(not true level, but the system is far too complicated for this discussion), the car might even level itself right off the cribbing. Short of jacking the vehicle up six inches by the frame before installing the cribbing, the only way to make the vehicle as stable as possible is to chalk the wheels, crib the frame, and deflate the tires. As far as the wrecker driver, I wouldn't ask anyone who will not be called in to court. Short cuts in the fire service only get people hurt or worse.

[D Wisner]

I have been involved in the fire service since 1980 and a medic since 1986. I have never, nor have I ever wittnessed, tire deflation (except "carbusters"). However, I have been involved in and witnessed many times, the deactivation of the suspension system.

Why do we check and every few minutes later, recheck vitals on a trauma patient? The same goes with the cribbing. I don't care what your patient weighs or how much weight you remove from the car. Check and recheck that the suspension has remained deactivated.

Deflating the tires without cribbing does NOT deactivate the suspension. Deflating with the use of cribbing just applies more weight to the cribbing. Check and recheck your cribbing as you go and leave the damn tires alone.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: rmoore ]</p>

[skip61rupert]

I tried tire deflation and have become a big fan of it. You are right, you should keep checking your cribbing every few minutes.

But what I have found with tire deflation, you have a lot less movement of the vehicle, even when you remove doors and/or people. Now I must add that tire deflation should be done controlled. I do not advocate the carbusters way of pulling valve stems. Too rapid of a decent and if you do not pull all 4 together, you will get rocking of the vehicle as it settles down. The old buck knife of other sharp tool in the sidewall it out as well. Get some deflation chucks and let the air out controlled.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: rmoore ]</p>

[Carl Avery]

Those of you who are regular readers know my POV on this. These just happen to be what I consider excellent posts. I would emphasis you looking at Skip's post, that is to keep your eyes and your mind open to new things even if they are old.

Tire deflation is nothing new, It has been around for many years. Those of us advocating tire deflation DO NOT advocate cribbing to the suspenion as some may believe. We all believe that you should crib to frame-Unibody-space frame of the car in question then deflate the tires.

To me you do not "lower" the car to cribbing, but you deflate to deactivate the Suspsenion package and YES the tires are part of that package.

I have had the good fortune to travel over a good portion of our fair Country and part of our neighbors to the North (Canada). I have seen a wide variation of Extrication practices and no "national standard". I encourage you all to look, examine, try, and remember there can be more than one way to "Skin a Car" AKA Perform Extrication.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: rmoore ]</p>

[Carl Avery]

OK one more thing!<br />I do not care what kind of Cribbing you do, whether you deflate or not - BUT CHECK, CHECK, and RE-CHECK your Cibbing through out your Extrication!

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: Carl Avery ]</p>

[mongofire_99]

Deflation is nothing new, it's the lifting that is relatively new and simply being pushed off as crap from some.

Is it necessary to deflate the tires on an Escort or VW when you can lift it enough to deactivate the suspension regardless of how much metal you remove?

And again, what is the method used when the tires are already flat?

Not being an expert witness, I can only testify that the times I have testified, vehicle stabilization has yet to come up except as what I would classify as a background type of question, i.e. "Mr. Mongo, did you stabilize the vehicle?"

They aren't interested in the FD anyway, the want Ford, Chevy and Dodges money.

But I am curious... Ron, how can (with the exception of gross negligence) it be proven that the FD worsened an injury?

Anyway, we should heed our own advise and keep an open mind.

[LadderCapp]

In 20+ years in the fire service I have seen the need a few, and I mean few, times to completely remove vehicle suspension from the picture. I have however seen,literally, a hundred or more extrications done without cribbing to stop from suspension movement. Look guys and girls,, this is not rocket science. If the vehicle is unstable, unsafe or there is danger of becoming so to either your patient or your rescuers, crib, chock, block, deflate, weld it to the damned guard rail if you have to but SECURE THE VEHICLE. <br />For you yahoos out there that feel you need to punch the sidewalls of $150.00 or more apiece tire to do a simple door pop for an insurance pains/ fender bender/ my neck my back my cadillac car wreck. Loosen up and find a hobby or two, you have issues. I have never, and I repeat never, seen, or heard of anyone that has actually seen this issue come up in court. let alone be the sole determination of a lawsuit pay-off. That is not to say that it hasn't happened, but let's put it into context folks. Do what you have to do, do it well, and get on with it.

[mongofire_99]

I like your style LadderCapp!

[skip61rupert]

Carl, You are correct. It was a bad choice of words on my part. Ensure you crib to the car before deflation. For the non-believers of tire deflation, I add this bit of info a "tire-guy" gave me a few years back and it makes sense to me. (By the way, he is also a rescue tech). With the advent of radial tires, and yes, some of us remember bias ply tires, what makes them so good for the highway, makes them not so good for us as rescuers. The radial tire allows more flex in the sidewall which keeps more rubber to the road when huggin' those curves at top speed. But it also allows for more side-to-side movement when performing rescue. Tire deflation just takes another wrinkle out of the equation. So with that said, what about the run-flat tires? The sidewalls are stiffer. Tire deflation does work on run-flats, however, not as effective. Great exchange of info here.

[bfcf623]

To frienship 2829, presented with the scenario you gave we would block/chauk the vehicle, pull the valve stems and let the car settle and recheck for stability. The wrecker driver is never around when we do are thing. You can remind P.D. that a flat bed wrecker would be more appropriate to remove the vehicle from the scene. Come to think of it almost eveyone uses flatbed wreckers in our valley now. "Problem solved". <img src="smile.gif" border="0">