Flip, flap, flop or convertible?

[rmoore]

There are a lot of ways to open the roof over a patient. One of the original techniques was to cut the front A-pillars then cut into the roof edge and peel the roof back.

My question... You have a car on four wheels and only a driver trapped...Command wants the roof opened. What do you do and why?

Total roof removal? Flap the roof?

Ron Moore<br />Forum Moderator

[mongofire_99]

Take it off.

With today's vehicle construction, extrication tools and techniques, it's just as quick (if not quicker), provides better access to the patient and you don't have to worry about securing it so it doesn't blow back on top of you.

[Aaron Meland]

I would flap the roof at the "C" post. In other words, cut the "A" and the "B" posts, placing the relief cuts just before the "C" post. If you do that, your patient access will be just as good as if you had done a total roof removal, but you won't have too cut through the "C" post, which tends to be a pain.

[mcleoud151]

Take the whole darn thing. Not much reason not to! It won't take any more time than a flap and it takes care of a bunch of problems for ya'!

[eyecue]

If you take the whole roof away from the a and b posts on the newer cars the floor board may buckle! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> This can cause other problems that have to be dealt with later. Roof peels are losing the appeals <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[kromer1]

Given the situation presented: car on 4, driver only... I agree with the removal.

In the long run it saves time and provides maximum access. With the combination of saws and cutters this can be accomplished faster and safer than folding.

The car folding in half.... not with proper stabilization it shouldn't

[Resq14]

Barring frontal obstuctions, I would cut all posts, then use the windshield as a hinge and flip the roof onto the hood.

I don't see a huge benefit to bothering with windshield removal in normal circumstances. Sometimes it would be necessary though. But in the scenario provided, why bother?

[MetalMedic]

Let's not get tunnel vision here. Removals and flaps are options. They make your "Plan A" and "Plan B". For me, I would have to evaluate the entire scene. Generally, roof removal clears the most potential problems, but as was pointed out, it could compromise the structural integrity of an already damaged vehicle. It also requires additional personnel to do a removal safely.

Keep in mind that you are removing the vehicle from the patient. Your goal is to obtain the best access in the safest and fastest manner. Depending on what I find at the scene.

You might consider flapping the roof to a side by taking the A, B and C posts. This keeps some of the front to back stability in place, and if you decide to take the roof the rest of the way off, it is generally easier to accomplish. Look at all of the options and pick the one that fits best and go with it. If it doesn't work, you still have "Plan B".

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: MetalMedic ]</p>

[pammoore]

I can see this topic getting into a major typing match!!!! Here is my idea. Plan "A" is to take the hole roof. Plan "B" for me would be something like this. If EMS is ready to go " we call it a rip and sip" the PT. is crashing or has already crashed try the following idea. Once your door is off make two cuts to the "A" post one high at the roof line the other low at the dash line. Use your long ram from the center of the kick pan to the 4" rolled channel in the roof line. Push the roof out of your way. It will peel the roof back to provide enough room to remove your PT.Your roof and all your post are still intact keeping your vehicle more stable. You also do not have to worry about the roof comming back down on you.Of course my first choice is to take the hole roof

[res7cue]

I feel the PT's condition is the #1 deciding factor. If you can stay and play, I say take the roof.

If you need to do a rapid extrication, then I say you only do whats needed to remove the PT in the fastest method that allows for the highest level of care to the PT in accordance to BTLS.

[Resq14]

Remember the question posed was:

You have a car on four wheels and only a driver trapped...Command wants the roof opened. What do you do and why?

Total roof removal? Flap the roof?

<br />So, the roof is being opened per command. Patient status aside, how would you typically do it in a "normal" (if there is such a thing) run-of-the-mill extrication?

[Ohiovolffemtp]

My personal preference is to use a battery powered sawzall & cut all posts, then flip the entire roof over the hood. It worked very well about a month ago on a Honda CRV down a hillside. Plus, the sawzall was much easier to get up & down the hillside than the Hurst cutters.

[4iron]

I agree with taking the entire roof off,but a detailed size-up with todays vehicles are needed first.Not many refer to checking:1)type & year of vehicle,2)total number and location of airbags(some of todays vehicles have more than 12 airbags!!!),3)what could happen to the patient and rescuers if you would cut/pry an airbag detonation device?

There are many fictions about airbag systems.This technology grows and changes with every vehicle and every year.Rescuers should learn as much as they can with regards to airbag systems.

[todd nelson]

I agree with 4iron, remember the new car technology (air bags) always scan your car before doing any cutting and after you scan the car and you are able to remove the roof, do a complete roof removal. Why leave the roof attached when you can remove the entire roof in the same amount of time as a roof flap, get the roof out of your way so you do not have to worry about it. When removing the entire roof, don't forget your edge protection on your a,b,c posts and maybe d posts.

[rmoore]

Here's a roof removal tip to consider when performing a total roof removal.

Cut the pillars ... C-pillars first. Cut the B-pillars next, then finally the A-pillars. In this way, the solid A-pillars will hold the roof steady over your patients as the bigger rear pillars are worked on. You don't need to tie up any personnel holding the roof. Keep everyone working.

When all other posts are cut and the crew is positioned on each side of the roof, then cut the A-pillars and remove the roof.

Ron Moore