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  • sawzall on door pin?

    Just curious as to how many have ever used a sawzall to cut a door pin? Actually I was skeptical myself until I had seen it done several times during an evening training session. I also showed a state instructor once, I don't think he was very impressed though.
    Firefighter/CCEMT-P
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

  • #2
    I have done it in training, haven't had a chance yet to do it on an actual crash. My gut feeling is that hydraulic tools may eventually become almost secondary to reciprocating saws at some point in the near future. With the ever increasing use of plastics and exotic metals in vehicles, I believe we will find it faster to cut apart a vehicle rather than muscle our way through them in order to free a trapped victim. I would recommend that everyone spend some extra time working with the saws to prepare for that eventuality.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    • #3
      I agree totally- our plan b is almost always saw operations, they are set up as soon as we get a chance and ready to go in staging if needed.
      Firefighter/CCEMT-P
      May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

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      • #4
        Dear Wacker,when i taught extrication at my fire academy i always taught the truck companies to attempt entry by cutting the pin with the saws-all(some co's had a battery powered saws-all)which made the cut easier and faster,only problem i ran into was the length of the blade.we used a bi-metal blade cut down to get in tight,thats the only drawback that i saw. good luck mike m

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        • #5
          Using a saw to cut the door pin is a practice that is not familiar to me. I have alwas been taught to never use a tool to cut, bent, or pry that part of the door. The idea is to take the car door away from the victim and by putting a saw in there to cut makes it not only dangerous to the victim but to EMS personel as well. This is like I said, a first for me on hearing the idea of sawing a door pin.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by northhfd068:
            <STRONG>I have alwas been taught to never use a tool to cut, bent, or pry that part of the door. The idea is to take the car door away from the victim and by putting a saw in there to cut makes it not only dangerous to the victim but to EMS personel as well. </STRONG>
            Avoiding the nade pin cut is excellent advise when you are using a hydraulic tool that "shears" when it cuts. The reason for this is that the case hardened steel can take off like a missle when it is cut off. This same hazard does not exist when you use a saw to make the cut. A saw gradually cuts away pieces of the metal. The final cut ends up as just the metal giving away as the part falls off harmlessly. Now, I will add that it could be faster to saw around the nader pin than through it since you are not cutting away at case hardened steel, but you do whatever works best in a rescue situation.
            Richard Nester
            Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

            "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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            • #7
              it has been my experience when cutting the nader pin,is that if you use the hydraulic cutter on the pin is that the cutters have a tendency to twist and the blades start to separate because of the high torque pressures thus causing the blades to actually break in half.due to wear and tear of the cutters the blades have a tendency to lose their alignment.when this happens its not that hard to break the blades.also the saws-all can be of great help now adays with extrication.but with every tool we use,great caution should be used especially when working in and around the passenger compartment mike m

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              • #8
                MetalMedic-

                Just to give you an idea of time a door pin can usually be cut in about 30 seconds with a fresh blade provided that saw soap is used when cutting. I do know that not all companies use sawsoap but I personally believe that it does help, the only drawback is you have to waste manpower with a man dedicated to spraying the soap.
                Firefighter/CCEMT-P
                May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

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                • #9
                  This is a definite option and can and has been used for sometime by many people. this tool can also be used in conjunction with a high Lift Jack to open a jamed door, the High-Lift (especially neet if you have a jack-mate on it[www.rescue42.com]) can roll the door down and away from its frame and the saw or a air-chisel can be used to "Blow" the Lock, and whaLa you have spent about 200-500 dollars to accomplish what a 5000 dollar tool does. Am I telling you to sell you Spreaders and Cutters NO! but I am telling you there are always options. Be open minded about your options, As far as endangering your patient, if you are "Blowing" the nader pin that is not a danger cause the Door frame protects them in that setting, if you are talking the "fillet" technique where you use a 9 inch blade to Slice through the Whole door, DO Remember HARD PROTECTION, that is our Job, an old short back board works well for this, plus there are other options for you to use. use your Head ,open you eyes and you just might be surprised what you can do with alternate options
                  Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
                  Carl D. Avery

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                  • #10
                    We've only had to cut the Nader Pin a few times. Usually, the spreaders have been able to pop it off w/ out too much trouble. Of the few times, the cutters have done it probably twice, and the sawzall maybe twice. Both have worked fine. I'm trying to get my company in more of a habit of using the sawzall in conjunction w/ the cutters. I've come to wrecks on the engine (2nd after the rescue), grabbed the sawzall and been through the posts at the same time the cutters are finishing the other side. They definitely have the capability of being faster and easier.

                    Stay Safe

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                    • #11
                      Cutting the Nader pin...

                      I wouldn't attack this first, as it's rare this is the only thing that's jamming your door. Even if you access the pin and cut it, it's probable that the door is still wedged in other places.

                      In many circumstances, I'd rather use the spreaders to vertically crush the window frame, access the hinges, pop the hinges, then allow the door to roll off or force it off the Nader pin. Now if the pin is the last thing keeping the door from coming off, get rid of it somehow.

                      Another option is to just cut the metal around the pin and take the whole assembly off with the door. Panel cutters, 'cip saw, air chisel, whatever. My preference is using the spreaders though.
                      God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
                      Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
                      Click this to search FH Forums!

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                      • #12
                        I just finished HURSTS latest classes and the saws all will be a no no shortly. The automakers are putting the fuel lines in the a and c posts. If you fracture one in a crash and take out a saw it could ignite. The newest techniques are to cut just about everything. Use the spreaders to open the purchase point on the door that you want to force. This is done with a verticle spread ..not a pinch. Then Pinch right above the front tire to collapse the compartment body beam. Now you go to the cutters. You cut the nader pin. It doesnt go anywhere because it is inside the door and there is a cover on the latch. Open the door and cut the hinges on the door. The door is gone. IF you have to do a dash roll the you just need to cut a space out of the kick panel and the a post. The new glass that they are going to start using WILL NOT BREAK AT ALL. With those last cuts then you go to a ram or spreader and get in the hole that you cut in the kick panel and lift away. If you are using a cutter and the tool starts to twist and the blades spread then you need to get the item being cut closer to the fulcrum of the tool. The tool needs to be checked for loose blades also. The newer cutting tool blades wont balk at a nader pin at all. HAPPY CUTTING.

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                        • #13
                          Eyecue,

                          From the class you just took, did the instructors say which makes and models were putting the fuel lines through the a and c posts (pillars) ? How about the makes and models of the unbreakable glass you mentioned ?

                          Thank you,
                          BE SAFE
                          Before Everything, Stop And First Evaluate

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                          • #14
                            This is a copy of the text message I sent directly to 'Eyecue' after I read his posting. I'll make any reply and any follow-up information available in the Forum when received.

                            Ron Moore wrote to Eyecue;

                            "Did you attend a HURST class in Pennsylvania presented by a factory representative?

                            Who was the instructor for the program that gave you the info on the A- and C-pillars?

                            Who gave you the info on the "unbreakable" glass?

                            --

                            [ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: rmoore ]
                            Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
                            www.universityofextrication.com

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                            • #15
                              I'll be watching this thread.I don't doubt they'll try to run fuel lines in the rocker panel area but I doubt you will see it in the pillars.Also for what it's worth fuel pressures non return systems are creeping toward 75-80 PSI and Coolant pressures are headed toward 30 Psi.Let's stay safe out there.T.C.

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